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King David
Kat:
Hi Gerry,
I think this below is what you were speaking of from the conference "How We Got The Bible.'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.20.html ----
Believe me most people that teach and write books on these prophecies, don’t have a clue. Not only do they not have the answers, they don’t even know what the problems are.
But these verses here;
Rev 20:4 …And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
v. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Both of these verses can not be true, there is a problem here. I racked my brain, in my spare time, but I kept it in the back of my mind for a long time. There is a problem, that won’t work and I can’t make it work. It doesn’t fit, there is no way to make this thing fit. Then some months ago, now I know why it, “but the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished” won’t fit. It’s not Scripture! Tischendorf has it right there.
Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished...
It’s not in the Sinaiticus. So I said, okay now we’re moving again. We’re a little closer to the Truth.
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So yes since that part of verse 5 should not be there, we can understand that the 1000 yrs is the reign of Christ on the earth. Here is another part of that same conference where Ray mentioned that.
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this whole book of Revelation is that testimony of Jesus Christ and has everything to do with His coming in us and coming back to the world to use us to convert all the nations.
Rev 5:10 And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth.
We will be kings and priests and we will reign with Him and it says on the earth for 1000 years.
Rev 20:4 …And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But it is not a 1000 years, that’s a symbol for something. I think I know what that something is now. I know when the 1000 years ends. But that is another subject for another time.
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--- Quote ---So will the overcomers will probably need to undergo some training and maturing, before they can serve the people in the second resurrection. We in this life are far from being complete, so we need to be made complete and then we can help others to be made complete (perfect). What do you think?
--- End quote ---
Those elect are being prepared now in this life to be resurrected at the first resurrection. No we are not going to reach perfection while we are still in this carnal flesh body, and even Paul knew he would not reach perfection in this life.
Php 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
But we are being made into HIS image, readied for the adoption/born into the family of God. We are coming to 'know' God and to recognize that this carnal flesh has nothing good in it. We are dying to the flesh, decrease, so He can increase (John 3:30). He is working in us now, so He can bring us in perfect unity, ONE, with the Spirit of God.
1Co 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
v. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
v. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Now as Paul said this is not just a change from a body of flesh to a spiritual body, but those in the first resurrection will be changed to "incorruption - glory - power." We will become one with God.
John 17:20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
v. 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
v. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
v. 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
Being brought into His image, to become one with God is where we will obtain the power and glory, it is not our own power or glory, but God's. That is the "fullness of Christ," that is when we will become perfect as He is perfect.
Eph 4:13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
Christ said He did not seek to do things for Himself, but He could only do the will of the Father.
John 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.
v. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him."
Christ could obey the Father perfectly because He had the Holy "Spirit without measure" and so will we if we are in the first resurrection.
John 3:34 For He whom God has sent utters the words of God, for He gives the Spirit without measure.
That's how I see that we will serve with Christ as kings and priests, not by anything we have, but by the oneness/unity of God in us, the indwelling of the Spirit without measure. Not by our own strength, power or wisdom, but by the power and glory of God.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
gerard_dsouza:
Thanks Kat. This is very useful information on the manuscripts. I never knew this before.
___________
--- Quote ---Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.
v. 3 And he cast him into the bottomless pit (abyss), and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little season.
That verse gives me a problem, it would take a long time to explain why. Believe me most people that teach and write books on these prophecies, don’t have a clue. Not only do they not have the answers, they don’t even know what the problems are.
--- End quote ---
This quote from Ray drew my attention. I too find the verses Rev 20: 2 and 3 gives me some questions.
Why is he bound for the thousand years?
Is he not required to be more aggressive and to help others and train them to be overcomers?
Why is he released for a little season after the 1000 years?
This makes no sense to me.
Anyone knows what was Ray observation on this?
indianabob:
Hi Gerry,
It would seem that the folks living into and born into the government of God during the Millennium period would not have been tested by being exposed to Satan the accuser who challenges their perhaps easily held belief and trust in God.
Note: even our Lord Jesus was tested in the wilderness for many days and then offered premature rule of the earth by Satan. So then if these new folks are going to be granted immortality then it would seem that they should finish their experience of trusting God for protection from Satan.
Satan came to tempt Jesus after Christ had fasted forty days and forty nights and was hungry.
“And when the tempter came to Him, He said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.” Matt 4:3
Jesus replied:
“Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.” Matt 4:4 (a quote from Deut 8:3)
In quoting from Deut 8, Jesus was referring back to Israel’s wilderness experience
gerard_dsouza:
Hi Indiianabob,
I don't have answers to this.
REV 20: 2 AND 3 shows Satan bound and in the bottomless pit. My puzzle to go figure, is why is Satan needed to be bound for 1000 years, is he not needed?
And after the 1000 years: this is what happens and why
--- Quote ---7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
--- End quote ---
1) Notice that he is thrown into a lake of burning sulphur in Rev 20: 10, why not bottomless pit again? What is he doing in a lake of burning sulphur where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. And what does tormented day and night for ever and ever mean?
2) While the others at the Great white throne judgement (second resurrection) are thrown into the lake of fire. It would make no sense to me if this happened after the 1000 years. Since there is no mention that this happens after the 1000 years, this could occur during the 1000 years at some point after the first resurrection.
--- Quote ---11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
--- End quote ---
Kat:
This age is for the "experience of evil" (Ecc. 1:13) as the Concordant has it, this dark backdrop which we are now developing for a knowledge of good and (mostly it seems) evil. Satan has a prominent part in this age influencing and tempting us to do evil.
Rev 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world;
Mark 4:15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.
1Cor 7:5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
Satan feasts on our carnality, as we are too weak to resist the sins/lust of this flesh and by this we are devoured because of the lusts of the flesh.
1Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
So when Christ returns it will be as Bob was saying, Satan will not be here to tempt people and it will be a time of peace and as Ray liked to quote "the world will learn righteousness" (Isa 26:9). He will return to rule with great power and there will be no opposition from an adversary or anything else. No, there is not a struggle going on now between God and Satan and there will not be then, Satan was created for a purpose, that is being accomplished in this age. Then he will be removed, he obviously will not be around to interfere while God is judging this world.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God.
v. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
v. 5 And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
During the next age Christ will rule supreme and He and the elect will bring about dramatic changes in this world, there will be no more pain and suffering, therefore no violence. However it is that Christ will rule, His authority will be completely over all, and the world will learn righteousness through judgment.
Isa 26:9 With my soul I have desired You in the night,
Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Rev 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison.
Then Satan will be released after that age is completed, obviously there is yet work for Satan after the 1000 yrs are finished. Ray did not get around to teaching on whatever Satan does at that point, but after Satan has accomplished whatever God intends, then he will also have his part in the lake of fire.
Rev 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (unto the ages of ages).
The lake of fire will be God's judgment on Satan just like it will be on the world that will also be cast into it.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
v. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
v. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
I tend to think the world is only in the beginning of the stages of being made into His image, there is a lot yet to be accomplished and God in His wisdom doesn't seem to want to rush all this.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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