Apostles and Prophets - What? 1 Cor 12:28

[microlink]

What is really meant by I Cor. 12:28?

(NKJ) 1Co 12:27  Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28  And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29  Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

(Concerdant )27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of a part,
28 whom also God, indeed, placed in the ecclesia, first, apostles, second, prophets, third, teachers, thereupon powers, thereupon graces of healing, supports, pilotage, species of languages.
29 Not all are apostles. Not all are prophets. Not all are teachers. Not all have powers.

My question is that since God has placed in the ecclesia (church) first apostles, second prophets, third teachers and so on, WHAT does this tell us of the situation in the true body of believers today? Is this telling us that that has occurred historically with the birth of the church and preaching in the first era of the New Testament Church OR is it more about what is going on at some particular time later in the history of the true Church? In other words did all of what is described in Verse 28 only occur in the first era of the church or is there more to glean from this scripture for us as followers of our Savoir?

And yes, of course there were and are teachers of bible truths provided by God through the years since the early days of the church, Ray being a prime example. What about Apostles and Prophets?

When I was in WCG we were told that these attributes of verse 28 could be found within the church organization itself, which I now believe was just nonsense. And there have been and continue to be men who are leaders of some COG groups claiming to be an apostle and that is down right ridiculous,

Anyhow, does anyone have some thoughts on 1 Cor 12:28?

[Dave in Tenn]

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8256.msg66839.html#msg66839

I could not find a transcript for this study, just the audio.  It's listed near the top of these above link as Church Government in 2 parts .mp3

Give a listen and if that doesn't help with you question, say so.

[Dave in Tenn]

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7725.0.html

I have been lately bombarded with questions concerning if there are TRUE COMMISSIONED APOSTLES AND PROPHETS OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST in God's Spiritual body today. I know there are false of both of these offices everywhere literally. But since Jesus does mention pastors, teachers, and evangelists, are there real converted Apostles and Prophets TODAY of the "few chosen" of God's elect? This argument is driving me crazy!

Thanks.
God bless you in Christ.
Ricardo


        Dear Ricardo: I have never met or heard of one. I call myself a "teacher." That's all. Actually it is Paul, not Jesus who mentioned these offices of ministry. Of course Paul also said that there would be a great falling away, so I guess it should not surprise us that these ministries are hard to find today.
        God be with you,
        Ray

[John from Kentucky]

Paul established that government for the carnal Christians that he taught.  That organization has carried over to the great false church system of the present day.

That church rejected and abandoned Paul at the end.  Paul was only left with a few close associates.

In 2nd Peter, we read where Peter had similar problems with the hard heads.

And in 3rd John, we read where the church rejected John, the Apostle to whom Jesus was especially close.

In Matthew 23, we read where Jesus says that He is the One Teacher and Master that we need.  The True Church does not need top down human leaders.  Jesus teaches and saves every one of His chosen Elect on an individual basis.  Jesus does not mass produce His Elect.

[gerard_dsouza]

Hi Microlink,

And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. (Acts 2:42 ESV)

Rev 21:14: And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

If we look at the above verses, we see that:
- We are to devote ourselves to the teaching of the Apostles. Also the foundation is still the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

For sure there are no apostles ministry. No one can come up with any new teaching which is not written in the New testament.

About prophets, this is not just someone who can prophesy, it is one who writes scriptures. All the apostles of the Lamb were prophets who wrote scripture.

Not sure what purpose would any person who is called a apostle or prophet will serve if they cannot write any new scripture. A person today starts a ministry and is called for something, can he be called a prophet or apostles, no way can they be called an apostles or prophet in my opinion. It does not serve any purpose as we have the revelation and words we need. No new revelation and no new word from God is needed.

We do have teachers and all of them will be judged severely if they teach something false.

James 3: 1Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

The evangelist business in the so called church is a total false phenomena. We have this ministry, in scripture, but not sure if all we see is real, as they do not add to the real church of God, they add the new members to the denominations and possibly many are not converted. Also these evangelist do not operate with any real gift of the miracles and healing in order to save others.

"And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles, some prophets , some evangelists, some pastors and teachers. His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the church)" Ephesians 4:11-12.

I found the message of Ray on church government very interesting and I believe he nailed it clearly. We only have one verse of elders and this is it.

1 Peter 5:5: Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Not much of government there.

Jesus says we are not to call any one teacher, but we have all the titles in churches, like pastors etc.

Mat 23: 8 "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.

You touched on a good topic and an important one. Hope you find the truth for yourself.

[Joel]

Ephesians 2:19-22
19-Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20-And we are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21-In whom all the building fitly framed together growth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22-In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The only apostles I recognize are those that Jesus Christ personally taught, and of course that includes Paul. The only prophets are; Samuel, Nehemiah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and so on. (foundational prophets)
There have been some that God used to  prophesy as in Acts 27-28. They don't have the same type of office as the old covenant prophets.

Yes there are many in Christendom today claiming this and that, but that house is not built correctly and if it isn't falling now, it no doubt will fall some time in the near future.


Joel

[microlink]

Thanks for your thoughts:

Regarding APOSTLES
Yes 12 Apostles and of course Paul. Good points Gerry referencing Rev.21:14 and your comments as well as that of Joel. There are no Apostles today and anyone foolish enough to claim being one is on dangerous ground with God.

Regarding PROPHETS
Even though there were Prophets in the OT, we find reference to some in the NT. So they were identified as such in the early NT Church. i.e.Agabus, Anna and the daughters of Philip the evangelist.

Apsotles and Prophets can certainly be called teachers.  Ray was a teacher and an Evangelist.

What about EVANGELISTS?
An evangelist is (Strongs2099) a preacher of the gospel. Concordant says Well-Messenger - how appropriate.

Act 21:8  And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
Act 21:9  And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
Act 21:10  And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.

2Ti 4:5  But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Luk_2:36  And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

Much to learn and we here love learning as well as loving the true gospel!

[Dave in Tenn]

Even Ray calling himself a "teacher" is not claiming a religious office.  I wouldn't be able to find it, but he defined "teacher" as being someone who teaches...that's it.  Perhaps even saying something like "Phillip the evangelist" has/had significantly less connotation of an "office" than it has come to mean.  In other words, being an evangelist is more something you DO, than something you ARE.

The gist of that passage in chapter 12 isn't (to my mind) setting up a hierarchy or list of church positions, but simply recognizing that there are people who do these things, all different and all working for each other.  Of course, all this culminates in the greatest gift of all which will last after at least some of these things pass away.