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[acomplishedartis]

I have been studying regarding the human conscience, and what the Scriptures have to say about it.


It seems to me that what Romans 1 is saying, is that there is (in EVERY human) an  innate knowledge or a deterministic tendency towards recognizing that there is a powerful divine Creator, trough our inmost consciousness.   

Rom 1:19  ''because what may be known about Him is plain to their inmost consciousness; for He Himself has made it plain to them. ''

Rom 2:15  ''since they exhibit proof that a knowledge of the conduct which the Law requires is engraven on their hearts, while their consciences also bear witness to the Law, and their thoughts, as if in mutual discussion, accuse them or perhaps maintain their innocence-- ''
(WNT)

Therefore,
Rom 2:6  ''TO EACH MAN HE WILL MAKE AN AWARD CORRESPONDING TO HIS ACTIONS''
Rev.20:13  ''...And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts.''

Where I am going, is that there is people who doesn't have the capacity for good reasoning (for example, dump people, feral children's, or mental ill people) So , how could it be said that they have an ''innate knowledge or a deterministic tendency towards recognizing that there is a powerful divine Creator''?

I am not talking about people that lost their capacity to feel guilty and have their conscience seared. I am talking about the ones, that seems that they never had the capacity to listen to their conscience.

I know there have to be a way to get out of this dilemma...

what do you guys think on this...

[longhorn]

You had me at Dump People.

[Rhys 🕊]

Isa 61:1  The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
Isa 61:2  to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn;
Isa 61:3  to grant to those who mourn in Zion— to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, the garment of praise instead of a faint spirit; that they may be called oaks of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he may be glorified.

Is anyone too hard for God? Don't think so

Maybe in our understanding they seem to be lacking but not too God

I think we can all add ourselves to the list of being lacking in some way. I'm none of the things you mentioned but have my issues and often things against God but it is He who breaks through in me and leads me to His truth. He will come to all people in His time and God will be all in all. They will understand what they need to know at the right time.

I don't have capacity for good reasoning either when it comes to God but then I didn't choose Him it is He who chooses me.

We all have our issues lets not single out any group of individuals and let us not limit God on what He is doing. One day we will see and understand, until then let us trust in Him.

A passage from Ray that helps me:

http://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm

Suppose we liken the human race to flowers, tulips, white tulips. Every single person on earth would look like a white tulip. How boring would that be? Suppose God said, "Okay, you don't all have to be white tulips, some of you can be red tulips, or yellow tulips, or blue tulips. That's better than all white, but we would still all be tulips. I hope you see my point. 

God made millions of flowers, millions of shades, millions of sizes, millions of shapes, and millions of fragrances. Shape, size, color, and fragrance make flowers unique, and add interest and beauty to our world.  And likewise, God made millions of people, and each has features that make each person unique. Once all of the selfish carnality is removed from man's heart, the human race will be the crowning pinnacle of God's creation. And each one of us will contribute something unique to the splendor of this achievement. 

God's heart and mind is set on uniqueness, variety, and differences. Out of the three primary colors, God can make billions of different shades. Out of just seven notes, there is the possibility of billions of different and unique melodies. Think of the prospect if God were to increase the number of primary colors to ten, or a hundred, or a thousand? Think if God increased the number of notes from seven to hundreds or thousands? It's mind-boggling what God may have in store for His children.

Rhys

[theophilus]

I have been studying regarding the human conscience, and what the Scriptures have to say about it.

God gives faith to a few, and He doesn't give faith to many. Now, many of that many doesn't give thanks to God, or recognize Him as God, even so when God shows them His power and divinity through the things that He have made. The reason of it, is because they have no faith and God doesn't want this to happen YET.

Anyhow, God obscure their hearts, and gives them up to do things that are not convenient for them.  But what must be noted here is that there is different levels in all of this, since some people have their heart harder than other ones, and some people acknowledge God in some parts of their life's and they don't in others. 

It seems to me that what Romans 1 is saying, is that there is (in EVERY human) an  innate knowledge or a deterministic tendency towards recognizing that there is a powerful divine Creator, trough our inmost consciousness.   

Rom 1:19  ''because what may be known about Him is plain to their inmost consciousness; for He Himself has made it plain to them. ''

Rom 2:15  ''since they exhibit proof that a knowledge of the conduct which the Law requires is engraven on their hearts, while their consciences also bear witness to the Law, and their thoughts, as if in mutual discussion, accuse them or perhaps maintain their innocence-- ''
(WNT)

Therefore,
Rom 2:6  ''TO EACH MAN HE WILL MAKE AN AWARD CORRESPONDING TO HIS ACTIONS''
Rev.20:13  ''...And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts.''

Where I am going with all this, is that there are people who doesn't have the capacity for good reasoning (for example, dump people, feral children's, mental ill people, etc.) How can it be said that they have an ''iinnate knowledge or a deterministic tendency towards recognizing that there is a powerful divine Creator''?

I am not talking about people that lost their capacity to feel guilty and have their conscience seared. I am talking about the ones, that seems that they don't have the capacity to listen to their conscience.

I know there have to be a way to get out of this dilemma...

what do you guys think on this...

Hello Moises, in your quote

"I am not talking about people that lost their capacity to feel guilty and have their conscience seared. I am talking about the ones, that seems that they don't have the capacity to listen to their conscience."

I would imagine that people who lost their capacity to feel guilty because their conscience is seared are people who "don't have the capacity to listen to their conscience". So what you're saying is that the people you ARE NOT talking about ARE the people you ARE talking about. I got confused here.

John 1:9 states that "The true light [JESUS CHRIST], which ENLIGHTENS EVERYONE, was coming into the world."

Jesus enlightens EVERYONE that comes into this world. For some people I think, this enlightenment stops at the point when the person ceases to "hear" his conscience for whatever reason. Examples of this might be serial killers. But even this event is OF God. For other people who are not serial killers but are not enlightened (are not able to see God in the creation around them), it could be that their hearts have hardened to the point that this witness of God ricochets off their hearts. I'm sure there's more variation than this.

Hasta luego Moises.

[theophilus]

You had me at Dump People.

Longhorn, that was very funny!!!

[Dave in Tenn]

Rom 1:16-19  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to everyone believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek; for in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; even as it has been written, "But the just shall live by faith." (Hab. 2:4) For God's wrath is revealed from Heaven on all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, holding the truth in unrighteousness, because the thing known of God is clearly known within them, for God revealed it to them.

Who is the 'them' in vs 19?  Those "holding the truth in unrighteousness".  That's not the world at large, or any subset of it.

Again:

Rom 2:14  For when nations not having Law do by nature the things of the Law, they not having Law are a law to themselves,
Rom 2:15  who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience witnessing with them, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing,
Rom 2:16  in a day when God judges the hidden things of men, according to my gospel, through Jesus Christ.

Who's "conscience" is witnessing with them?  Those of the nations not having Law. 

As far as those individuals who are unable to make moral choices, as in a lot of things, the absence of a function helps to solidify the understanding of the function.  An example would be something I am unable to do.  I'm partially color-blind.  No amount of 'education' can make me see certain colors.  But the 'study' of color-blindness has helped in the understanding of "normal" color vision.  Maybe there is a spiritual application to that regarding your question.  Then again, maybe not.   

Rom 2:6  ''TO EACH MAN HE WILL MAKE AN AWARD CORRESPONDING TO HIS ACTIONS''
Rev.20:13  ''...And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts.''

Correctomundo.

And to add:  2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good (things) or bad (things).  Parentheses mine.
 


 

[acomplishedartis]

Hello Moises, in your quote

"I am not talking about people that lost their capacity to feel guilty and have their conscience seared. I am talking about the ones, that seems that they don't have the capacity to listen to their conscience."

I would imagine that people who lost their capacity to feel guilty because their conscience is seared are people who "don't have the capacity to listen to their conscience". So what you're saying is that the people you ARE NOT talking about ARE the people you ARE talking about. I got confused here.

Hi theophilus
When I said ''"I am not talking about people that lost their capacity to feel guilty and have their conscience seared'' this is one group of people who had the capacity to listen their conscious and they no longer, for example, like you said, this could be serial killers.
Then when I said '' I am talking about the ones, that seems that they don't have the capacity to listen to their conscience." Here I was talking about people that never had the capacity, for example, the feral children's.

Anyway, I want to apologize because I probably didn't explain my self clear enough in my first post. Only Dave in Tenn, got what I was asking about.

I could just have said: From Romans 1, How can God said that ''every one'' knows about His eternal power and divinity trough their inmost conscience, when there is people that never got the capacity for reasoning (conscience, knowledge, etc.)?

Well. I got my answer...

[acomplishedartis]

Rom 1:16-19  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to everyone believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek; for in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; even as it has been written, "But the just shall live by faith." (Hab. 2:4) For God's wrath is revealed from Heaven on all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, holding the truth in unrighteousness, because the thing known of God is clearly known within them, for God revealed it to them.

Who is the 'them' in vs 19?  Those "holding the truth in unrighteousness".  That's not the world at large, or any subset of it.

There is the answer! The people receiving God's wrath; the ones "holding the truth in unrighteousness", they are the ones that know about Him in their inmost conscience. At first instance, it seems like it's talking about all humanity, especially because verse 20 talks about the foundation of the world, But I can see now that we always have to pay attention to ALL the words.

Thanks Dave, I agree with you on this one. And I have also found witness for it.

So, Who is ''holding the truth in unrighteousness and know in their inmost conscience about God's power and divinity?  Would that be Israel and the rest of the Christian world? I believe so.


 

[Dave in Tenn]

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6310.msg50887.html#msg50887

-------------------------------------------

And a tiny snippet from the Nashville Conference '08

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men (Not all humanity, but those…), who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

That is not the Elect, okay.  If you are holding the truths of God in unrighteousness, you are not one of God’s Elect.

---------------------------------------

[cjwood]

You had me at Dump People.

longhorn you are one funny dude!  i just laughed so hard after reading your post.  gotta remember that our young brother moises' first language is espanol.  but i gotta say, you cracked me up good.

claudia

[Deborah-Leigh]

The beautiful excerpt introduced by Rhys, of Ray comparing humanity to a field of tulips, shows how heavenly thought expresses itself.

The knowledge from the tree of good and evil fruit, that is the SAME FRUIT, brings expressions to tulips AND weeds, or them AND us, or saved AND not saved.

God doesn't have an AND in His Vocabulary for ALL in ALL is not All AND them! God is ONE.

...AND...lol... Longhorn...you are the best!

Arc

[lilitalienboi16]

Great thread moises, very edifying! Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us!

Love to you brother.

Alex

[indianabob]

Moises & Alex

DITTO from Indiana Bob.

Ditto = same from me, I agree, I would have said the same thing if I had thought of it first. (smile)

[dave]

Until the time when the Father draws, all live in the  CONSCIENCE, it's what we are.
Rom 8:20  for to vanity was the creation made subject--not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it --in hope, Rom 8:21  that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;
Rom 8:22  for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now.

We are all in His purpose, All is in His plan. I wish, I wish that the atrocities and horribleness that humans do, was not... but all I have been given is His Blood, His grace, His faith, His love, and knowledge of His redemption. I am reminded of Ray's teaching on the mote in a brothers eye. That was a home run in my mental file.

[acomplishedartis]

Great thread moises, very edifying! Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us!

Love to you brother.

Alex

Thanks Alex,
  I am also working to get better on my english, every night befre sleep; I have been reading a couple pages of a little book that is helping me with my enlgish grammar and writing style.

appreciate it bro...