Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Nathan]

*Gerry, I was in the process of posting this prior to your final post where you said you see where your error is. I'm just posting it for the sake of learning as this is a misunderstood topic and some scriptures can be taken out of context. In verse 16 we read that Michal despised David in her heart, (verses 20-23) David rebuked her, but never cursed her to be barren - God made her barren. Isaac simply reiterated to Esau, through a prophetic utterance, what the Lord had already spoken to Rebekkah while Esau was yet in her womb - he would serve his younger brother, etc. Lastly, Paul didn't curse those men, but he passed judgment in the name of Jesus upon them by handing them over to Satan so that they might be saved on the day of the Lord.

Obviously, all 3 of the examples you showed, the "cursed" had serious heart issues.

Thanks brother.

Nathan, you stated here: you say iniquities are operating for those who hate him and not those who love him.
I agree to this. Now for us who love the Lord, we can break free from the curses of our Fathers, who are called by God by his will not our own.

What you're saying is, those who love God can BREAK FREE from a generational curse that has been handed down by ones fathers. Again, there are no generational curses. If we love the Lord then there are no "curses of our fathers" to break free of.

Did Isaac curse Esau or was Esau's own iniquity being visited upon by God? This is what Isaac spoke: “Your dwelling will be away from the earth’s richness, away from the dew of heaven above. You will live by the sword and you will serve your brother. But when you grow restless, you will throw his yoke from off your neck.”

Was this a curse from Isaac or a prophetic utterance of was already said by the Lord to Rebekah before Esau was even born: "And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger". (Gen 25:23)

Did Paul "curse" those men by handing them over to Satan or was he passing judgment in the name of Jesus so that these men would be saved on the day of the Lord?

You quoted 2 Samuel 6:20-23 - let's take a look at verse 16 of that same chapter: "And as the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the Lord; and she despised him in her heart".

Did David curse her? David rebuked her, but God made her barren. I do not see anything in David's rebuke that references her becoming barren: David said to Michal, “It was before the Lord, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the Lord’s people Israel—I will celebrate before the Lord. I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor.”
 

[gerard_dsouza]

Thanks Nathan, what you mentioned makes sense. What in your opinion is the visiting of iniquities of those who hate the Lord on the children. What is an example of that? Forget about using a word curse, that is not mentioned.
Thanks for clarifying that.

[loretta]

Earlier I wrote

are we all, post the crucifixion, under grace and God's sovereign hand.  The reason I ask, is because often, we look around and see people (not the elect) burdened or afflicted and we conclude that they are under a curse, a generational curse.

Guess, I ought to apologise too, for having got the debate started on generational curses!   I should not have mentioned the word generational, only curses.  Nonetheless the discussion was very enlightening.

Exodus 20:5,6 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation OF THEM THAT HATE ME; And showing mercy unto thousands of THEM THAT LOVE ME, and keep my commandments.

The iniquity visited upon the children unto the third and fourth generation are only on those that hate Him, NOT those that love him. A child is not cursed by the actions or behavior of a father and therefore, by default, MUST hate God and be cursed by him. Are children influenced by the behavior of their parents? yes and no - it depends. Are they cursed? NO.

tks Nathan, I get it now.

Under the old covenant, blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience were for the nation of Israel, God's people.  What God did to the other nations were of His sovereign design, to accomplish His divine plan.  As God's chosen people under the new covenant, we are no longer under the law, but under grace (and judgment), while the rest of the world is subject to His sovereign designs, both good and bad (Mt 5:45, second witness Eccl 9:2 ?).  In the aftermath of the Haiti earthquake the well know tele-evangelist, Pat Robinson said that Haiti had been brought under a curse by their forfathers who'd made a deal with the devil.  Fortunately his statement was soundly dismissed by a majority of Christian, but I remember being in agreement with Robinson at the time - the religious fundamental that I had evolved into.  Closer home, the recent Himalayan Tsunami that ravaged the poular pilgrimage and tourist places in north India leaving thousands dead also invites similar response.  We cannot ascribe to God what He chooses to do or not do in His sovereignty.

[Nathan]

Thanks Nathan, what you mentioned makes sense. What in your opinion is the visiting of iniquities of those who hate the Lord on the children. What is an example of that? Forget about using a word curse, that is not mentioned.
Thanks for clarifying that.

I think what Kat stated makes the most sense - sinful living from generation to generation can be cyclical. Often times, the apple doesn't fall far the tree, so to speak. We can see this very same generational cycle of sinful behavior in our own land.

God visits the iniquity on the children only if the children are also committing iniquity as did their fathers. The following passage of scripture states that if the children confess THEIR iniquity AND the iniquity of THEIR FATHERS and their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, then God will remember the covenant He made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. (Lev. 26:40-42)

God visits the iniquity unto the third and fourth generation of them that have trespassed against Him and have walked contrary unto Him; God shows mercy to those children of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation that confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers and humble themselves; God remembers the covenants made with their forefathers - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (3 successive generations).

What is an example of that? Forget about using a word curse, that is not mentioned.

We see examples in Scripture of iniquity being passed down from generation to generation through all of the false doctrines, "traditions of men", "traditions of the elders" and "tradition of the fathers" that the elect have come out of. Many generations of self-professing Christians, who claim to be doing the Lord's work, are actually workers of iniquity as were their forefathers.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.   (Matt. 7:22,23)

[gerard_dsouza]

Thanks Nathan.
This makes sense and is matches the Old Testament principle.