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Did Jesus become a Curse on the cross?
gerard_dsouza:
Thanks Nathan,
There is so many promises made by Jesus to his 12 disciples, like they can tread on serpents and if they are bitten by them nothing will happen to them. Paul was bitten by serpents and he did not die, I agree, but ne did not sit their and claim any promise, he just received from God what God wanted him to experience by God's Grace.
Having said this, we cannot have this kind of promise applied to us till it is spoken to us by Jesus. So in a sense all promises cannot be claimed by us unless we hear from God. When we hear from God is it not about claiming but receiving.
I see this analogy as a person speaking and demanding God, because he has written this. We can even hear their attitudes when they speak and shout out promises to God to do as if he is a person who has to obey them. From healing to everything and also deliverance and also money. It is really bizarre and they cannot see their arrogance. All this is the spirit of rebellion and equivalent to witchcraft in my opinion. What do you think.
Yes we can pray for all things and that also in private and in a spirit of meekness and poverty. God will be more interested in this attitude than a attitude of claiming his Word. So we understand that Jesus can forgive us, we do not sit and claim forgiveness, but ask for forgiveness. So much different attitude. Claiming does not represent faith. But praying and believing that we will receive what we are praying from based on what God has promised he will do, if we fulfil the condition of the promise, even like forgiveness of sins.
Just my thoughts. What do you think? Open to different opinion.
Gerry
Nathan:
Gerry, in my opinion, much of what you've brought up goes back to "free will". How many Christians are truly seeking the will of the Father when they pray? The belief, by many, that we have a "free will" is also manifested in the way that many pray and make claims on Scriptural promises. It's MY will be done as opposed to THY will be done. Of course, they say they are simply laying claim to promises that are promised to them, but our Father knows our heart. How about the promise that followers of Yahshua/Jesus will suffer persecution?
--- Quote ---All this is the spirit of rebellion and equivalent to witchcraft in my opinion. What do you think.
--- End quote ---
Yes, there is definitely a demonic element that permeates throughout the Charismatic churches. From the crazy, incoherent babblings (speaking in "tongues") to being "slain in the spirit", the fake healings, false prophecy, etc. - it's a counterfeit spirit. I think they believe the louder they scream out the promises they lay claim on, the faster THEIR will will be done. It reminds me of the prophets of Baal in Elijah's day.
On the other end of the spectrum, churches like the one Joel Olsteen runs, seem to be nothing more than motivational speaking seminars. The essence of motivational speaking is to believe in SELF and to WILL things into existence. Regardless of the denomination, they all want to define God's will on their terms as opposed to acknowledging that all things are subjected to His will and His WILL will be done.
The Professor:
What I don't understand is that some people read one verse, ONE VERSE, and go about claiming things because of that single verse.
When, if they just sat down and studied the rest of the Scriptures they would see that the one verse from which they make all these claims from is inconsistent with everything else.
Like "II Cor. 5: 21" for example. Jesus never mentioned any of the sort in the canonical Gospels, in fact it's the contrary, but of course for some, this is all ignored.
With things like these I remember what Ray said concerning spiritual matches and witnesses...
God's most important messages are constantly repeated throughout..."He who has ears, let him hear..." (Matt 11:15, Rev 2:29).
loretta:
As I now understand, Christ died for the sins of ALL the world. He became a sin offering, bearing our punishment ( and curse under the law of the OT ) thus ushering in the New Covenant of grace. My question is, are we all under grace; believers, unbelievers, the called and the elect ? Are the blessings and curses under the Old Covenant irrelevant now? What then did Jesus mean when he said,
Mt 5: 17-18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Kat:
Hi Loretta,
I have put together some places where Ray taught on this, it's good to review these things from time to time.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4826.0.html --------------
Hi Ray, in your article you state the covenant changed but not the law and sight Heb 8:7-9 as absolute proof that there needed a change of covenant not the law of the covenant. But Heb 7:12 says that of necessity the priesthood changed so the law must change. And according to Duer 4:13 doesn't the old covenant include the 10 commandments. And also if do not be angry with a brother added spirit to thou shalt not murder by getting at the root cause doesn't that make one law carnal (murder) and the other (not be angry) spiritual. Thanks Ray, confused loyal fan. Nelson
Dear Nelson: The change in the law regards who can be a priest. Under the Old Covenant one had to be of the line of Aaron/Levi. Under the New Covenant that has been changed so that Jesus Christ can be our High Priest Who was born of the line of Judah/David.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6442.0.html -----
The OLD LAW was and still is "spiritual." "For we know that the LAW [the one they always had] IS SPIRITUAL" (Rom. 7:14).
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D2.htm ---------------
Beginning with Verse 17 we read:
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Why would Jesus ever suggest that His disciples would think that He came to destroy the law or the prophets? Well, for one thing, because He appears in the next few verses to contradict what the law and the prophets had to say, and therefore, this could be a logical deduction that Jesus was doing away with the law of Moses. The primary law of the Covenant God made with Israel consisted of the Ten Commandments:
"And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even ten commandments and He wrote them upon two tables of stone" (Deut. 4:13).
However, there were approximately 613 laws contained in the law and the prophets, and Jesus makes references to several of them which are not contained in the Ten Commandments.
In fact, Jesus made a big deal about teaching the very laws that He did not come to destroy, plus a new and higher application of those laws:
"...but whosoever shall do and teach them [the very least law], the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:19-20).
v
Jesus said, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" (Matt. 5:18). Is heaven and earth still here? Even if we take "heaven and earth" to be solely a symbolic term, still, heaven and earth has not spiritually passed away from humanity.
http://bible-truths.com/email8.htm#holy -------------
You are not distinguishing between things that differ as the Scriptures admonish us.
It seems hardly anyone knows that "fulfill means." Jesus said that he "fulfilled" the LAW, yet it is taught today in the Church that it YET needs to be fulfilled BY US. What is that? I have never heard a minister yet put the parts of Christ declaration together:
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law OR THE PROPHETS: I am not come to destroy, [the law AND THE PROPHETS], but to fulfill [the law AND THE PROPHETS]" (Matt. 5:17).
Now then, did Jesus Christ "fulfill" all of the prophecies concerning Him? Well if He did, then does there REMAIN any that He DID NOT FULFILL? Then why doesn't anyone, it seems, believe that He also and in the very same way fulfilled "the law?"
We are now under a NEW COVENANT and Hebrews 8 tells us that this NEW covenant is NOT IN ACCORD with the OLD covenant.
The Pharisees kept the old testament law of Moses with its ten commandments. But Jesus said that WE, Believers, must FAR EXCEED the righteousness of the Pharisees. Jesus gave us NEW COMMANDMENTS that are far superior to the old law. Christ's laws are SPIRITUAL laws. The Old Covenant which really IS "the ten commandments" (See Deut. 4:13) was an administration of DEATH. The laws were of the letter (death) not of the spirit (life). See II Cor. 3.
Under the Old Covenant you were to HATE YOUR ENEMIES. Under the New we are to LOVE OUR ENEMIES. Love your enemies is not a slight modification of hating your enemies. Not lusting after a woman is not a slight modification of not committing physical intercourse with a married woman. NOT SWEARING is not a slight modification of swearing! Etc. Can you see this? Under the old covenant one was to love his neighbor as himself. Under the new we are to esteem our neighbor HIGHER than ourselves. Do you see the difference?
http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html --------------
CHRIST AFTER THE FLESH VERSUS CHRIST AFTER THE SPIRIT
"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after [according to] the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, YET NOW HENCEFORTH KNOW WE HIM NO MORE [after the flesh]" (II Cor. 5:1).
"Therefore if any man be IN Christ, he is a new creature [creation]: old things are passed away; behold ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW" (II Cor. 5:17)!
How many Christians believe that "IN Christ" we are a NEW creation and that ALL the old things have passed away and that ALL things are become NEW? How many pastors teach the NEW Covenant?
Christians sing: "Give me that OLD TIME religion—it’s good enough for me."
There was an OLD covenant, and now there is a NEW covenant. Do you know what the NEW COVENANT is? Theologians teach that the New covenant is keeping the OLD covenant, BETTER! That is unscriptural nonsense! They teach that we are to keep the law of Moses, BETTER, and we will fulfill the NEW testament.
Is the New Covenant patterned according to the Old Covenant? Let’s read it:
"For finding fault with them, He says, Behold, the days come says the Lord, when I will make a NEW covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah [he is a JEW who is circumcised in his heart and spirit, Rom. 2:29]: NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT that I made with their fathers…" (Heb. 8:8-9).
So then, is the NEW covenant "according" or "NOT according" to the Old covenant?
Then why does the Church continue making the Old Covenant binding on Christians?
Christendom is attempting to believe in the New Covenant, while at the same time trying to live in the Old Covenant. This can’t be done. In fact, Jesus sternly warned against attempting to do such a contradictory and damaging endeavor:
"And He [Jesus] spoke also a parable unto them [the Pharisees]: No man puts a piece of new garment upon an old: if otherwise, then both the new makes a rent [tear], and the piece that was taken out of the new agrees not with the old [‘NOT according with the covenant which I made with their fathers (the OLD Covenant, Heb. 8:9)]. And no man puts new wine into old bottles [wineskins]; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish [be RUINED]. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. No man also having drunk old wine straightway desires new; for he says, The OLD is better" (Luke 5:36-39).
This is a parable! Jesus is speaking of the Old and New Covenants. We cannot, we dare not, try to put the old with the new. BOTH WILL BE RUINED! Why don’t we believe Jesus? We can’t put the Old and the New together. And true to Jesus’ words, when people come into a knowledge of the New Covenant, they PREFER THE OLD BETTER!
Did you also notice that when we put these two covenants in their proper places (the Old is for babes to bring them to Christ, while the new is for those maturing into Sonship), that they are BOTH PRESERVED? Yes, both are preserved, but only if we don’t MIX THEM. Could anything be clearer.
The "Chosen" live by the New Covenant: The "Called" try to live by the New and the Old Covenants. They have never learned this simple lesson: "No servant can serve TWO masters…" (Luke 16:13). The two covenants are not even in "according" with one another—they are not to be "unequally yoked together," seeing that they are not equal. If you want to be a New Testament Christian, then you need to learn and know what the New Testament is all about.
v
WHAT IS THE PURPOSE FOR THE MOSAIC LAW?
Can boys become men on their mother’s milk? Neither can men become spiritually mature on things of childhood. Paul said when he was a child, he thought and acted as a child, but when he became a man, he said he put away childish things. The Christian Church today refuses to put away childish things. Here is the purpose for the Law of Moses in the Church:
"Wherefore the law was [it was now past tense for Paul because he had matured] our schoolmaster [Gk: tutor or guardian] to BRING US UNTO CHRIST, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come [faith HAS now come] we are NO LONGER under a schoolmaster [the law of Moses]" (Gal. 3:24-25).
How is it that all the educated theologians with all their PhD’s can’t understand this simple analogy. The law—the law of Moses, was our "schoolmaster." It WAS, it isn’t any more. Why not? Because mature adults are no longer children. We have all had schoolmaster in our youth. We were under them, subject to them, disciplined by them, taught by them. I am now 62 years old. Am I still under my grade school teachers? Of course not. Do I, however, try to remember the things I learned from my teacher? Why yes, of course. But as a man I am now subject to higher authorities. A person will never acquire a college degree if he never gets out of grade school.
What happens to those who are so foolish as to think that they should remain forever in grade school under a tutor/schoolmaster?
"Now I say, That the heir [the potential, prospective, heir to the kingdom of God in the first resurrection], as long as he is A CHILD [wants to remain a minor under the Old Covenant Law of Moses] differs NOTHING FROM A SERVANT, though he be lord of all; but is under tutors and governors UNTIL the time appointed of the father" (Gal. 4:1-2).
Do you follow this? An heir to the Kingdom of God, as long as he does not mature, will never inherit his Father’s Kingdom, but is in no better position that a "servant" who will never be heir to his master’s household! Let them who have ears to hear, HEAR. You cannot mature on mother’s milk. The Church furnishes mother’s milk to children and corrupts their minds with "the DEPTHS of Satan." We must "come out of her" if we are to be God’s people.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4115.0.html -----------
It is not wrong to study the "Law" portions of Scripture. If, however, you think that you need to "keep" the law as ancient Israel attempted to do, you will accomplish very little. The reason for this is because "The LAW IS SPIRITUAL....." (Rom. 7:14). ONLY "Christ is the end [the goal, result, purpose, conclusion] of the law for righteousness in every one that believes" (Rom. 10:4). NO orthodox Jew can keep the law of God WITHOUT CHRIST! This is a lesson they will yet have to learn in Judgment.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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