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Author Topic: Zeitgeist  (Read 5173 times)

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Shawn Fainn

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Zeitgeist
« on: August 19, 2013, 07:19:15 PM »

Did Ray ever have any writings to debunk this? I saw a few emails, but thought there was more that he's stated on it.

Thanks
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2013, 09:21:01 PM »


Here is a email on this subject.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=11751.0 ------

Dear Darlene:  You obviously have listened to "Zeitgeist."  Am I correct?

This video is deceiving millions for sure.  You are not suggesting (I hope) that
I can explain this video and its theories in an email. 
v

Zeitgeist is a long and involved topic.  The man obviously hates the very idea of
a real God, an inspired Bible, and a Messiah who died for our sins  It could take
a long time to cover properly the material on this video.  After all, I am sure it took
Peter Joseph (the author, producer, director, editor, music production,
and distributor) several years to put together, so it isn't likely that one can go
through it point by point to debunk it in a short time.

Let me just say this for your present spiritual dilemma:  There is NO solid documentation
regarding the many outlandish statements regarding Jesus being merely the resurrection
of much earlier myths of the Egyptians, Babylonians, etc.

The Zeitgeist movie makes these claims about the Egyptian god Horus:
• He was born on December 25 of a virgin (Isis Mary)
• A star in the East proclaimed his arrival
• Three kings came to adore the new-born “savior”
• He became a prodigious teacher at age 12
• At age 30 he was “baptized” and began a “ministry”
• Horus had twelve “disciples”
• Horus was betrayed
• He was crucified
• He was buried for three days
• He was resurrected after three days

But when we look for historical documentation for any of the above ten supposed
similarities between Horus and and Jesus, they can't be found. I spent a long time
writing my Lake of Fire Installment on: "The Origin of Everlasting Torment."  I studied
Egyptian history and the Egyptian gods. I even purchased several advanced books
on Egyptology.

Historically, the birth of Horus is put sometime in October-November, not Dec. 25th. And
since Jesus wasn't either born on Dec. 25, this wouldn't be a parallel anyway.

There is no "star in the east" which proclaimed the birth of Horus.

As for the "three kings" who came to adore the "new-born savior," it is an embarrassment
to Joseph's scholarship seeing that he has squalled the traditional nativity scene of
Christendom, not being aware that the wise men came into THE HOUSE to see the young
BOY, years after His birth.   

There is no historical record of Horus becoming a great teacher at age 12.

There is no record in Egypt that Horus was "baptized" and then began a ministry.

Horus had four demi-gods as they are called, for friends, but not twelve disciples.

Maybe Horus was betrayed.  Thousands of historical figures have been betrayed, but I know
of no historical documentation that says Horus was betrayed.

Zeitgeist puts the birth and death of Horus at around 3000 BC, yet crucifixion was unknown
until many many centuries later.

Horus was cut up into fourteen pieces by his enemies, and spread on the Nile River, but
I have never seen where he was buried for three days.  Likewise, there is nothing to
substantiate the he was 'resurrected" after three days.

It is also claimed that Horus was born of a virgin mother Isis-Mary in a cave manger, etc.
Actually Isis was married to Osiris and was not a virgin.  Isis of Egypt did have the title
"Mr-ee" which means "beloved," given to her, but that's a far stretch from saying her
"name was Mary." And as for the "cave manger,"  Jesus wasn't born in a cave, and Horus
was born in a swamp.

There are also many other claims of similarities between Horus and Jesus, but NOT ONE
of them is substantiated by any story, myth, or history in Egypt.  Can you now begin to see
how many distortions of the truth are presented in the rest of this Zeitgeist deception?

Such unscriptural doctrines as "Everlasting Torment" in some fiery hellhole of pain and
suffering, actually do come from places like Egypt.  But the Scriptures know nothing of
such a teaching.  It has been forced into some Bibles (like the King James, NIV, etc.),
but certainly not all translations.  Examples that do not carry the words "eternal," "hell,"
etc., would be,  The Concordant Literal Old and New Testaments, Rotherham's
Emphasized Bible, Young's Literal Bible, The Emphatic Diaglott, etc.

Look:  Here's what I would tell a person who tells me that he fears death because when
he puts his head under water for more than a minute, he can't breath, and panics.  My
advice?  DON'T PUT YOUR HEAD UNDER WATER!!  Don't read  faith-destroying
material.  These deceivers and smart and they are clever, and they understand human
nature.  They know how to deceive.  We need to heed the admonition of the apostle

Paul:  "Neither give place to the Devil" (Ephesians 4:27).

It looks like Peter Joseph was pretty much in charge of this whole deception:

Zeitgeist Addendum
Directed by    Peter Joseph
Produced by    Peter Joseph
Written by    Peter Joseph
Music by    Peter Joseph
Editing by    Peter Joseph

Very few Christians on earth are able to take on people like Peter Joseph.  These
deceivers will eat you for lunch. The same goes for trying to take to task a learned
Christian theologian.  I think that I can hold my own with the best of them, but then
again, God has been working with me and showing me His truths for many years
now, though I still have much to learn.  It is hard to build a huge and enduring structure
without a solid rock foundation.  It is your very foundation that is coming into question
for you right now.  I will try to do something with Zeitgeist in the future, God
willing, but I'm afraid it is not a priority at this time. Hope you understand, and I hope
this reply will sustain you until I can write a more detailed answer to Zeitgeist.

God be with you,

Ray

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Addison

  • Guest
Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2013, 05:47:10 AM »

Hudson, I can tell you more about Zeitgeist than almost anyone in the world. I have probably seen that documentary, along with the other Zeitgeist documentaries, like- 100 times... and I honestly wonder how much of an exaggeration that is. I went through a weird phase after I found out about bibletruths.com and learned some spiritual truths where I dabbled in some of my other more worldly interests like politics, economics, psychology, conspiracy theories, etc., and because of this I was pretty much obsessed with Zeitgeist for a while, especially in my college years, because I learned a lot about these subjects from the Zeitgeist documentaries. 

There is a lot of confusion about what "Zeitgeist is" and I can see that even Ray was wrong about some things about it too. When you say "Zeitgeist" I assume you are referring to 'Zeitgeist: The Movie" which is the first of three documentaries that came out directed by Peter Joseph (His real last name is Merola by the way). This was a very controversial film because of the subjects it covered: the "Jesus myth theory", that the U.S. govt. was in some way involved with the attacks of September 11th, and the history and corruption of our fractional reserve banking system... the film is separated into these three parts.

The second and third Zeitgeist films don't deal with conspiracy theories or religious mythology. These films advocate social change... I can tell you all about this too but it is off topic. PM me if you have any desire to learn about the rest of what "Zeitgeist" is... I could talk your ear off about it. Fun fact, actually: I was one of the first members of "The Zeitgeist Movement" (look up what that is on Wikipedia if you want... although I would like to reiterate that The Zeitgeist Movement and the subsequent films have nothing to do with conspiracy theories or Christian mythology)

Ray says "The man obviously hates the very idea of a real God, an inspired Bible, and a Messiah who died for our sins". I actually disagree with this statement. Peter Joseph, the creator of this film, has never even heard the real truth about Jesus. Can you really say someone hates Jesus if everything they have been told about Him was a lie? Peter Joseph has said that he agrees with the things Jesus said... he felt many Christians were unlike Jesus like Ghandi said.

 Ray seemed to believe that Peter Joseph originated the ideas put forth in this film "It looks like Peter Joseph was pretty much in charge of this whole deception:", but that actually isn't true. Peter Joseph had a friendship with DM Murdock, who is an author of many books about religious mythology. She has a book called "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Told" (Look it up on Amazon... it has very popular reviews). I actually bought this book because I wanted to read it with the hopes of being able to debunk it. I have not read it yet though, but I would love to refute it in the future and maybe even post a debunking video on YouTube. DM Murdock (nicname "Acharya S") helped him with this part of the film.  I also have the "Zeitgeist Source Guide" PDF which goes through each statement made in the film and gives the source where the information came from. I don't know where Ray got his information about the film but if I ever set out to debunk the film in the future I'll hopefully be able to find out what is true about the film and what isn't. Make no mistake about it- some statements made in the first part of the film are true. We know that Christmas and Easter are pagan traditions celebrating the winter and spring equinoxes, for instance. I personally think that a lot of the statements made in the film such as these might be true... but of course not anything that supports the claim that Jesus wasn't divine or didn't exist of course.

Peter Joseph is by far one of the most intelligent people that I have ever known of. I have listened to countless hours of audio from him when I was a member of the Zeitgeist Movement, watched the documentaries countless times, I've seen him give lectures, I've read his writings, I've even listened to his music, etc. ... from a wordly perspective this man is very brilliant and creative. But I've learned that God doesn't give the truth to people who are wise from a wordly perspective. He gives the truth to foolish nobodies like us.

Ray gives great advice though... If something destroys your faith then you should probably avoid it. I understand the desire to want to refute the claims made in Zeitgeist though.... it is after all deceiving a lot of people like Ray has said.

If you are really interested in learning about the origin of the theories supported in Zeitgeist, then read "The Christ Conspiracy" by DM Murdock. She also has videos on YouTube where she tries to refute "Zeitgeist Debunkers".



Addison

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The Professor

  • Guest
Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2013, 10:14:08 AM »

Interesting. I was initially going to reply to this thread, but I wasn't sure what the OP meant. Was it Zeitgeist the movie? Or Zeitgeist the theory? Even though both are related.

...Ray says "The man obviously hates the very idea of a real God, an inspired Bible, and a Messiah who died for our sins". I actually disagree with this statement. Peter Joseph, the creator of this film, has never even heard the real truth about Jesus. Can you really say someone hates Jesus if everything they have been told about Him was a lie?

If you don't have a Spiritual mind, then you have a carnal mind and a carnal mind is hostile to God.

Many Christians have never heard the real truth about Jesus either and what do the Scriptures say about them?

The man has not properly researched the Egyptian god Horus (as Ray mentioned in the email above) and neither has he researched and the actual time of Jesus' birth.

Of course, I will also mention, there is no point of researching something if you don't ALREADY have some belief in what you are researching.

...Peter Joseph has said that he agrees with the things Jesus said... he felt many Christians were unlike Jesus like Ghandi said...

I don't see why you had to mention this. Most humans are unlike Jesus including Joseph himself...regardless of whether he "agrees" with what Jesus said or not.

...Ray seemed to believe that Peter Joseph originated the ideas put forth in this film "It looks like Peter Joseph was pretty much in charge of this whole deception:", but that actually isn't true...

No, Ray never said Peter Joseph originated the ideas put forth in the film (I doubt he even cared). What he DID say was that Peter Joseph was pretty much in charge of the deception...in this case the film being made. Believing in something is one thing, but when you release a film about it, you intend for many to watch it...which inevitably puts a lot of doubt in those people's minds.

The fact is, if you are going to radically change people's thinking and tell them "all these people are telling you lies...whilst I am telling you the truth", you better be right about what you are saying...so was he? And I don't just mean a few things, I mean everything.
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Addison

  • Guest
Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2013, 02:10:11 PM »

If you don't have a Spiritual mind, then you have a carnal mind and a carnal mind is hostile to God.

Many Christians have never heard the real truth about Jesus either and what do the Scriptures say about them?

The man has not properly researched the Egyptian god Horus (as Ray mentioned in the email above) and neither has he researched and the actual time of Jesus' birth.

Fair enough, your point is taken. But I have some sympathy for people who hate the evil god of Christianity and are ignorant of the real truth. Peter Joseph has no reason to believe that the bible is inspired because the only bible he has ever known of teaches eternal torment, and Peter has no reason to believe in "a Messiagh who died for our sins" because he has never been taught the real truth about Jesus.


Of course, I will also mention, there is no point of researching something if you don't ALREADY have some belief in what you are researching.

What? That is not true at all. Many people research things because they want to develop a belief about something. For instance, I have absolutely no belief in global warming at all- I'm quite ignorant when it comes to this subject actually- but I might one day research it to develop a belief about it.

Quote from: Addison on Today at 05:47:10 AM
...Ray seemed to believe that Peter Joseph originated the ideas put forth in this film "It looks like Peter Joseph was pretty much in charge of this whole deception:", but that actually isn't true...

No, Ray never said Peter Joseph originated the ideas put forth in the film (I doubt he even cared). What he DID say was that Peter Joseph was pretty much in charge of the deception...in this case the film being made. Believing in something is one thing, but when you release a film about it, you intend for many to watch it...which inevitably puts a lot of doubt in those people's minds. 

Ray said that Peter was in charge of the deception and then listed the credits for Zeitgeist Addendum. Once again, Zeitgeist Addendum was a completely separate film about completely different topics. This is one of the things that I mentioned that Ray was wrong about. Zeitgeist The Movie is the film that talks about Christian mythology, and I know that Peter received a lot of one-on-one help from people in making the film: DM Murdock/Acharya S for the first part of the film, and G. Edward Griffin for some of the other parts of the film.

The fact is, if you are going to radically change people's thinking and tell them "all these people are telling you lies...whilst I am telling you the truth", you better be right about what you are saying...so was he? And I don't just mean a few things, I mean everything.

Well yes, we should all be telling the truth of course, but nobody is infallible (who is right about "everything"?), and I think we should have some sympathy for those who don't know the real truths of God partly because of the evil teachings of Christianity.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 04:58:53 PM by Addison »
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Addison

  • Guest
Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2013, 04:47:50 PM »

Who is this uncircumcised heathen named Peter Joseph, or any of his deceived followers, and why should I care?

Jesus is their Savior.  It is Jesus' problem.  Let Him take care of them.

If it is not Jesus, then don't follow him or have any dealings with him.  "Come out of her My people", says the Lord.

I agree, but I think some of us are interested in the Zeitgeist film because, as Ray pointed out, the film has deceived literally millions, and we want to be able to refute it for those who might use it as a source for their unbelief.
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Shawn Fainn

  • Guest
Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2013, 08:15:11 PM »

Sorry for the confusion. I didn't realize there was more than one Zeitgeist. :)

Actually, I've never seen the movie or read the theory. Just saw someone parroting how Jesus was actually 'Horus' (that 'Christianity' was stolen from the Egyptians, etc), and wanted to refute their statements.

I gave them a link to Ray's email, and hopefully that was enough for now. Guess I'll research it further (and check those videos you mentioned) in the future to be more prepared. Thanks!
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