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[Dennis Vogel]

"There but for the grace of God go I."

Remember, God could have made any of us anyone else and put us in any situation at any time.

[microlink]

Yes indeed. So true.

[theophilus]

What does Jesus have to say?  Let's see.

"...I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours."  John 17:9

Since Jesus didn't pray for the world, neither do I.  However, the majority do not follow or believe Jesus.  They worship God how they choose.  So they go about praying for World Peace, World Hunger, and most important of all to these heathen---Love, Love, Love for all, regardless of their ways.

Jesus never prayed for "our brave boys fighting in the Roman Legions."

Jesus also said those "who take the sword will die by the sword."

Let the dead bury the dead. At this time, Jesus is saving His Elect.  That's why He tells us "Come out of her My people."  Only the Elect hear His voice.  The Many listen to Satan and his religious teachers of this world.

Jesus is not going to save the World, the Many, until the next age, after His return.

Then, what about 1 Timothy 2.1-3: First of all, I encourage you to make petitions, prayers, intercessions, and prayers of thanks for all people, 2 for rulers, and for everyone who has authority over us. Pray for these people so that we can have a quiet and peaceful life always lived in a godly and reverent way. 3 This is good and pleases God our Savior.

[John from Kentucky]

What does Jesus have to say?  Let's see.

"...I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours."  John 17:9

Since Jesus didn't pray for the world, neither do I.  However, the majority do not follow or believe Jesus.  They worship God how they choose.  So they go about praying for World Peace, World Hunger, and most important of all to these heathen---Love, Love, Love for all, regardless of their ways.

Jesus never prayed for "our brave boys fighting in the Roman Legions."

Jesus also said those "who take the sword will die by the sword."

Let the dead bury the dead. At this time, Jesus is saving His Elect.  That's why He tells us "Come out of her My people."  Only the Elect hear His voice.  The Many listen to Satan and his religious teachers of this world.

Jesus is not going to save the World, the Many, until the next age, after His return.

Then, what about 1 Timothy 2.1-3: First of all, I encourage you to make petitions, prayers, intercessions, and prayers of thanks for all people, 2 for rulers, and for everyone who has authority over us. Pray for these people so that we can have a quiet and peaceful life always lived in a godly and reverent way. 3 This is good and pleases God our Savior.

It does no good to quote Scripture unless you can understand and discern the meaning, which comes by the Spirit of God.

As Ray was fond of saying, "you have to read all the words".

I highlighted the answer to your question in dark letters in that Scripture.  The reason we are asked to pray for rulers is so "WE", the Elect, can live a quiet and peaceful life in a Godly and reverent way.

All the rulers in this world, just like all the religions and other systems are of their father Satan, the prince of the power of the air, and ruler over the children of disobedience.  We need God's help to protect us from their evil and stupid decisions.

The Scriptures do not contradict.  Jesus did not pray for this world.  Jesus prayed for His chosen Elect.  The world will have their time of salvation in the age to come, after the Return of the Great King.

[onelovedread]

The question though is "Are we certain we're the Elect?"

[Kat]

To me it is not a question of certainty, but one of a living and very real hope. If we doubt at every turn, where is the faith? Paul called this hope we have like a race.

1Cor 9:24  Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.

We should take on the race with all we've got, and strive like Jesus said to enter the "narrow gate."

Luke 13:23  Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?"
    And He said to them,
v. 24  "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

The Spirit of Christ indwelling should become apparent to us. If your perspective on life is being changed from world mindedness, if your attitude is changed towards mercy and kindness to others, you should know/feel that... you should sense a difference in yourself and over time as you look back you can see how you have changed. It is not an arrogant certainty, because that could even fuel our carnality... but it is very real, a living hope in Christ.

Heb 6:17  Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath,
v. 18  that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.
v. 19  This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,

v. 10  For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
v. 11  And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end,

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[theophilus]

It does no good to quote Scripture unless you can understand and discern the meaning, which comes by the Spirit of God.

I stand chided, even though I didn't quote scripture to rebutt but to learn what any of you knew about it. Without quoting scripture this time, I remember Ray wrote about Jesus' last prayer on the cross. Ray was trying to show that the Father forgave ALL those involved in the crucifixion of Christ. According to Ray, we all had a part in the Lord's death.

But as you clarified above, Jesus NEVER prayed for the whole world. Therefore, I must conclude that those Jesus prayed for, because they didn't know what they were doing, were some of the elect that eventually came to believe in Jesus.

[dodrill]

This has bothered me too - dying TO Christ and dying FOR Christ - are so very different - and I don't care if it's the Pope or Bob Geldof praying or actively doing something to bring the plight of the poor and the oppressed to public attention - blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God
Maybe being an Elect of God requires you to physically die also?

[Dave in Tenn]

"God" and "righteousness" are on all sides.  Even "sides" which lay no claim to God, lay claim to Righteousness and let other's claim God on their behalf.  How can this be?  A house divided against itself cannot stand.

The carnal mind really only has two choices:  1.  Return evil for evil and call it good.  2.  Find some reason to refrain from returning evil for evil and call that good.  What a woeful selection.

The option of returning good for evil is not open to them.  I'm not sure how it is even open to me in all cases, not being one who has to make these large world-scale decisions--at least not yet.  But I do believe that the Lord God intends evil for good, though it takes time for His plans to come to pass. 

 

[dodrill]

well said - what choices we have - very little - the root of it all is money - and the love and enslavement of it all - bring down the strongman - and then what do we have? a house divided against itself cannot stand - we are so far from the bond of unity that should or does exist between us all - rooting out the evil in my opinion is stopping the money machine of greed that makes war happen - just me Dave venting

[Nathan]

Maybe being an Elect of God requires you to physically die also?

Not true. The elect that are alive at Christ's coming, who are changed in the twinkling of an eye, certainly are not dead physically.

[dodrill]

How can I being someone who by Grace has been given this time to examine the evidence in the scriptures (and relevant personal freedom) be thinking I am selected to know these truths?
No - even an elect? I think we fool ourselves thinking because we have this knowledge and exposure that we are the generation - hey if I walk on passed the brother that is beaten down by robbers - I am a hypocrite
we are so privileged to not have experienced real hardships - yes personal ones we all endure
Jesus came to do His Father's work - which was making the law spiritual - last I looked - I was still a (wo)man
what I learn about being spiritual is in my closet - what I take to the world is an advocate of a higher law - this does not make me a pacifist

[dodrill]

An after thought - can you imagine if Peter had taken the Gospel east and not west?
At least in the east they acknowledge there was a sovereign power - be it their years of intimidation and over lording - but still a mindset
For me as a Westerner - I still have to learn to share
love you all

[Kat]

Hi theophilus,

1Tim 2:1  Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
v. 2  for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.

This Scripture that you brought forward to be considered cannot be denied as to what it is saying. It is true Christ said He did not pray for the world, and we do understand that this age is what it is and will not change. But what is being said in 1st Timothy is concerning the believers and how they live in this age. Now there is no need to pray for 'world' peace or even peace in the middle east to come in this age, that will only happen when Christ returns in the next age.

But if you think back to the time of the kings of Israel there were some whom God called righteous and under their rule the people prospered and then there were those wicked kings and under those the people suffered. So what I think this Scripture is saying is we can pray for individuals that make decisions that effect us and our families.

I have no interest in getting involved in politics to any degree, I don't think that means pray for the nature of this world's government to change. But when we know about people in positions that make decisions that can directly effect the quiet and peace of our lives, well of course it is good to pray about that.

Even Ray said God inspires people to pray when He intends to bless or do favors for us. I can see how in His stirring us to pray about something He intends to do thatit would help us come to trust and seek God even more. He wants us to turn to Him with all of our concerns and needs. So I do think praying for those "kings and all who are in authority" when they can directly effect us is a good thing to do.

http://bible-truths.com/praying.htm --------------

No man has ever in the history of the world received an answer to a prayer for something from God that God did not already have in His plan to give him. People hate the very thought of a God Who is totally and completely Sovereign, and the reason is simple. If God is Sovereign, then man has no free will that can thwart the sovereign foreknowledge of God. God cannot know for certain a future event if mankind possesses a power that can thwart God’s perfect foreknowledge. Not even most of the greatest minds in theology have thought this apparent enigma through. Had they given sufficient thought to this Truth of God’s Word they would not be teaching such a plethora of unscriptural and damnable heresies.

When God wants to answer someone’s prayer, the first thing He will always do is inspire (cause) that person TO PRAY. How can God answer a "prayer" if someone doesn’t "pray?" God can bless us and do favors for us, but God cannot answer our prayers, if we don’t pray. That is why I get excited when I feel inspired to pray, as I am encouraged that God is getting ready to bless or favor me in some way.
---------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rickylittleton]

Just to add my 2 cents in; just think about the many so call "wars" that are going on in many countries and nations that we don't even hear about. One example is on the content of Africa. Many places on that content are at peace, but there are many places that are at war at this very moment, and we don't hear about it too often. Being of African American decent,  and try to study the things there, there are some people who I know who live there and often I hear some news of what is going on, but it not reported in the U S news. Also in other nations, and on other contents, many so call "wars" are going on at this very moment, but we must trust in the words of Jesus when He said, "When we hear of these things, be not"alarmed", for it must needs happen,-But not yet is the end" For there will arise- Nation against nation, And kingdom against kingdom. Just wanted to add, as I said my "2 cents" in. Tim

[eggi]

"Thy Kingdom come." If we pray for peace, are we not praying for His Kingdom of Peace to grow amongst us? When we pray for peace and wisdom to the leaders, we are not praying for the world, but for the world to be changed.

God bless you,
Eirik

[microlink]

Well said Kat.

[lilitalienboi16]

I must add, that I am actually slightly confounded on this matter.

Can someone quote me ray's writting on where He explains Jesus did not pray for the world? I remember slightly the verse in my head along the lines of "I pray not for the world but I pray for them for they are yours Father..." or something along those lines. However, I'm interested in seeing further explaining on this matter. I have read the praying article, did I have my blinders on?

Also, The verse in timothy is rather strange. Is the emphasis of it all on the fact that we are to pray for the world not that the evil that must be, passes away, but that so the evil it gives rise to does not taint our own?

I've read everything everyone had to say here. This is a fascinating discussion.

I certainly do pray for my brothers and sisters in Christ, both known to me and unknown. I can't remember the last time I prayed for peace in the middle east, our politicians, this country etc... because I always reduced it down to "Its in God's hands and He will do as He plans," and "which one of you by worrying can add another minute to your lives?" So I try and have peace in all these things that occur. I pray for myself and my family as well, my loved ones though some may not chosen, converted, have the mind of Christ etc... I also try and give thanks as often as I can for everything the Lord has blessed me with. So again... should I be praying for my local elected officials? Should I be praying for the governor of california? I never thought I needed to....

Interesting topic, I wish I had a bit more clarity on this because up until today I thought  I was praying the way I should. Always "IN ACCORDANCE WITH WHAT MUST BE."

Alex

[John from Kentucky]

I must add, that I am actually slightly confounded on this matter.

Can someone quote me ray's writting on where He explains Jesus did not pray for the world? I remember slightly the verse in my head along the lines of "I pray not for the world but I pray for them for they are yours Father..." or something along those lines. However, I'm interested in seeing further explaining on this matter. I have read the praying article, did I have my blinders on?

Also, The verse in timothy is rather strange. Is the emphasis of it all on the fact that we are to pray for the world not that the evil that must be, passes away, but that so the evil it gives rise to does not taint our own?

I've read everything everyone had to say here. This is a fascinating discussion.

I certainly do pray for my brothers and sisters in Christ, both known to me and unknown. I can't remember the last time I prayed for peace in the middle east, our politicians, this country etc... because I always reduced it down to "Its in God's hands and He will do as He plans," and "which one of you by worrying can add another minute to your lives?" So I try and have peace in all these things that occur. I pray for myself and my family as well, my loved ones though some may not chosen, converted, have the mind of Christ etc... I also try and give thanks as often as I can for everything the Lord has blessed me with. So again... should I be praying for my local elected officials? Should I be praying for the governor of california? I never thought I needed to....

Interesting topic, I wish I had a bit more clarity on this because up until today I thought  I was praying the way I should. Always "IN ACCORDANCE WITH WHAT MUST BE."

Alex

Here you go.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1711.0.html

[Nathan]

Alex,

Here is an email exchange with Ray - I believe it will shed some light on the topic of "not praying for the world".

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1348.msg11593.html#msg11593

Dearest Ray,
 
You are a "ray" of light! Please would you tell me what Jesus could have meant in John 17:9 where He excluded the world in His prayer. Who did he mean to be excluded?
 
Thank you & bless you
Deborah


Dear Deborah:
Good question.

The "world" represents two entities in Scripture:  [1] The Church, Judaism, the Whore, Mystery Babylon the Great, and [2] The social system of the nations in general.
 
Jesus referred to both in John's Gospel account:
 
"...but be of good cheer; I have overcome the WORLD"  (John 16:33).  What "world?"  Did He overcome China?  Japan?  Indonesia?  No, Jesus overcame the world of Judaism--"He came unto His own [the Jews] but they received Him NOT," and hence He had to overcome them all the days of his earthly ministry.
 
But in John 17:24 we read, "...for You loved Me before the foundation of the WORLD" is speaking of the whole "kosmos"--the whole system of world governments.
 
Jesus prayed for NEITHER of these two "worlds," as their destiny is solidly fixed by God's divine providence, and therefore prayer would be of no value. Jesus does not pray that His Father's Prophecies should NOT come to pass, and neither do God's Elect pray such nonsense as is parroted daily over the air waves "pray for world peace."  Nonsense. There will be no world peace--God has already decreed it.
God be with you,

Ray