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Oatmeal:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on September 20, 2013, 12:38:45 PM ---
Jesus prayed that the Father would remove the suffering He was destined to suffer. But the Father said NO.
--- End quote ---
I have great difficulty with the idea that Jesus prayed to the Father that he would not have to go to the cross. I know that is what the mainstream church teaches, but does it truly make sense, and does it agree with Scripture, and with the attitude that Jesus displayed up to that point in time?
Using the King James Version, according to the Scripture, as recorded in Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death", and as recorded in Mark 14:34: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death".
Is it possible that at that time Jesus was under such spiritual/emotional/physical pressure (whatever the reason) that he was praying to the Father that he would not die right then and there in the Garden, and his Father heard him, hearing him meaning, (as hearing does mean, doesn’t it?), that the Father said YES to his request?
Oatmeal
Craig:
So does it make more sense for His Father to answer yes to the prayer to not die in the garden, and then turn around and let's Him suffer and die a horribly painful death on the cross??
Craig
Kat:
--- Quote from: Oatmeal on September 26, 2013, 02:44:55 PM ---
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on September 20, 2013, 12:38:45 PM ---
Jesus prayed that the Father would remove the suffering He was destined to suffer. But the Father said NO.
--- End quote ---
I have great difficulty with the idea that Jesus prayed to the Father that he would not have to go to the cross. I know that is what the mainstream church teaches, but does it truly make sense, and does it agree with Scripture, and with the attitude that Jesus displayed up to that point in time?
Using the King James Version, according to the Scripture, as recorded in Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death", and as recorded in Mark 14:34: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death".
Is it possible that at that time Jesus was under such spiritual/emotional/physical pressure (whatever the reason) that he was praying to the Father that he would not die right then and there in the Garden, and his Father heard him, hearing him meaning, (as hearing does mean, doesn’t it?), that the Father said YES to his request?
Oatmeal
--- End quote ---
Hi Oatmeal, what that prayer Jesus prayed says to me is that though the plan is absolutely determined, but by the Father. Jesus no doubt understands the will and general direction the Father is going very well, but maybe not all the future details. He did say He did not know the day and hour of His return to earth.
Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
I do not believe Jesus was asking not to die then or later, He knew that all human life depended on that. But He was a physical man and certainly had seen a crucifixion at some point, maybe His request was to "let this cup pass" or that particular way of dying. That it was possible that the Father had already determined He would die another way and that was the reason He asked. But we know He ended the prayer with "nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." He was willing to do whatever He had to, and He did!
mercy, peace and love
Kat
John from Kentucky:
We need to understand that there are not two Gods: 1) a Father God and 2) a Jesus God.
God is One the Scriptures teach us. Jesus told us "I and Father are One." Jesus told the Apostles that if they saw Him (Jesus) then they saw the Father. But as Paul said, "not many know this."
The Father and Jesus are two sides of the same coin.
Colossians 1:15 tells us Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God. They are complementary to one another. You cannot have One without the Other. Jesus could not be without His Father, but many do not realize that you could not have a Father without a Son.
Jesus was God in a physical, human form. It makes sense to me that any human in His right mind would not want to suffer as Jesus did.
So Jesus asked that the cup of suffering be removed. The Scriptures clearly tell us that Jesus made that request. But the answer to that prayer was NO.
What many also don't know is that the Father suffered the same as Jesus. The Father was not off somewhere and could not be disturbed. The Father experienced all the pain and suffering through His visible image, which was, and is, and will be---Jesus.
Kat:
--- Quote ---God is One the Scriptures teach us. Jesus told us "I and Father are One." Jesus told the Apostles that if they saw Him (Jesus) then they saw the Father. But as Paul said, "not many know this."
--- End quote ---
Okay John, I do know that the Father and Son are One and we too will be One with them some day.
John 17:11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
John 17:22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
One in Spirit and mind to know and do the will of the Father perfectly. But I do not believe that this mean we no longer have our personality, that it will disappear into God or something... I think that is one of the reason there is all this variety of life situations.
--- Quote ---The Father and Jesus are two sides of the same coin.
Colossians 1:15 tells us Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God. They are complementary to one another. You cannot have One without the Other. Jesus could not be without His Father, but many do not realize that you could not have a Father without a Son.
--- End quote ---
God received the title "Father" when He produced a Son, Jesus came into existence when He came forth from God.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
John 16:27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.
Yes the Son is the perfect image of the Father, but He is not the Father, but I would say more like an extension of the Father. Jesus only is what the Father wants Him to be, God of this creation.
Here is where Ray spoke of this. This first one is from the 06 conference 'THE FATHER'S WILL?'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html -------
John 10:30 I and the Father are one!
They’re not the same person, but ‘one,’ there’s a difference. But one, same spirit, same mind, same attitude, same character, same power, same strength, same wisdom, same purpose, they are one.
v
So He is God, but He is not His own Father. Jesus Christ came to reveal the Father; Luke 10:22; John 6:46;
Matt 11:27, Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son will reveal Him.
Nobody knew anything about God the Father, until Jesus Christ revealed Him. The only God that anybody knew was Jesus Christ.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11344.msg98233.html#new -------
Your question may be "short," but it is not specific. I realize how difficult
for most to "pay close attention to all the words."
You ask whether "God our Father" had a beginning? You then suggest that the churches teach that
"God always existed." Which is your question? Did "God the FATHER" have a beginning or did 'GOD"
have a beginning. See the difference? We must make a distinction, as there is a distinction.
The phrase "God the Father" is nowhere found in the O.T. Hebrew Scriptures, only in the N.T. Greek (Ex: John 6:27).
"GOD" (Who is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ) has always existed and did not have a beginning.
However, God as a "FATHER," did have a beginning. One cannot be a father unless He is a "parent," for that
is one of the main definitions of a "father" in the Greek language. God has conceived a Son, and from that
time He became a FATHER with a Child--the beginning of His FAMILY.
God means "placer or disposer." God is not a "placEE" or a "disposEE." God the PlacER was never placED
So: "GOD" as the original supreme Being of the universe did not have a beginning.
But God "THE FATHER" of our Lord Jesus Christ did not become the "FATHER" until He became the Father
and Spiritual Parent of Jesus Christ. Hope this helps clear up your discussion.
God be with you,
Ray
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