> General Discussions
wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
Oatmeal:
Hi
Kat provided a quote from Makeup/Divorce? where Ray used the expression "a host of sexual immorality". In Esther - The Destiny of Women Ray uses the expression "a whole host of sins".
Here is another quote from Ray, which Kat referred to earlier in this thread: MATT 5:32 & MATT 19:9 a Study.
I cannot harmonise Ray's definition of the word "fornication" used in Matthew 5:32 and Matthew 19:9 with these very same Scriptures in which the word is used, when in the actual and very same Scripture, and in Mark 10:11-12 and Luke 16:18 where fornication is not mentioned, Jesus gave examples of persons that are committing adultery. That a present and continuously occurring act of adultery is in existence can only be true if the original marriage is still in a continuous present existence. The divorce, remarriage, and adultery that Jesus refers to has not nullified the first marriage (otherwise the re-marriage would not be adultery) and therefore the word "fornication" that Jesus used, which fornication can nullify a marriage, is not and cannot be referring to adultery. Is that not just simple logic? If such logic is flawed, then it is just a matter of the flaw being explained.
In reference to Deuteronomy 22:13-14, Deuteronomy 24:1, Matthew 5:32 and Matthew 19:9, an espoused woman or a new wife found not to be a virgin, can be divorced. Besides this, I cannot find confirmation in the New Testament that adultery can nullify a marriage. Perhaps someone can point a confirming Scripture out. I am definitely receptive to being wrong. It would or could be very useful to me as my divorced brother is planning to marry a divorced woman in less than one week’s time, and at this stage I am unwilling to go to the wedding. So I could possibly go. And then I could get remarried. Wow.
Jesus said (Matthew 19:6 and Mark 10:9), in the very same passages of Scripture that people now use as an excuse to get divorced: "What God has joined together, let not man separate", and in Romans 7:1-4 the permanency of a wife being bound to her husband until the death of her husband is used as an example.
If the word "fornication" used in Matthew 5:32 and Matthew 19:9 does include adultery, and can be applied to a man, then is a married man who looks at a woman with lust (even a little tiny bit of lust?) (Matthew 5:27-28) divorce eligible?
As I said in my post immediately previous, even though I have been told that I was wrong in my conclusions in my [earlier] post regarding marriage, divorce and remarriage, it has not been explained to me from the Scriptures the specific of my error.
Oatmeal
G. Driggs:
Another good option is forgiveness. Love covers a multitude of sins.
I haven't really been following this thread so forgive me if i get something big wrong.
Dave in Tenn:
You said, "Ray says that adultery, and not only adultery, but also a "whole host of sins", can make the first marriage invalid."
This is the "quote" I am looking for.
Kat:
Hi Dave here is that comment.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2774.0.html ---
Divorce: The only way that Jesus said one can leave a marriage and/or marry another is if there is "pornia" present (called 'fornication') in the King James. Pornia means "prostitution," but it can also mean a host of sexual immorality. Also, Paul tells us that if a man will not provide for his own family, he is "WORSE than an infidel." The same is true of a man or deserts his family, or abuses his wife or children. In such cases of "immorality" a mate should not be considered bound.
God be with you,
Ray
Oatmeal, it is okay if your studies bring you to a different understanding than what Ray taught, nobody can be 100% right on every thing they teach. But Ray is no longer with us to discuss all that brought him to what he believed and explain in more detail how he came to his understanding. There is no doubt much more study behind what he actually taught.
It is not the purpose of this forum to disprove what Ray has taught or find supports of what you may believe differently either. So we must leave this as it is, hope you understand.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
theophilus:
Adultery is the act of sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife, or sexual intercourse between a married woman and someone other than her husband. Adultery violates the bond of the marriage union. Fornication is a more general term usually referring to any kind of sexual misconduct or sexual impurity outside of the bounds of marriage. It is often used symbolically in Scripture to mean a following after idols or an abandoning of God.
Matthew 19:9
Names of God Bible (NOG)
9 I can guarantee that whoever divorces his wife for any reason other than HER UNFAITHFULNESS is committing adultery if he marries another woman.”
Matthew 19:9
Expanded Bible (EXB)
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman ·is guilty of [commits] adultery.[a] ·The only reason for a man to divorce his wife is IF HIS WIFE HAS SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH ANOTHER MAN [L. …except in the case of sexual immorality].”
Matthew 19:9
New Living Translation (NLT)
9 And I tell you this, whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery—UNLESS HIS WIFE HAS BEEN UNFAITHFUL.[a]”
Footnotes:
19:9 Some manuscripts add And anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. Compare Matt 5:32.
Footnotes:
Matthew 19:9 adultery Some Greek copies continue, “And anyone who marries a divorced woman is guilty of adultery.” Compare Matthew 5:32.
1 Corinthians 5:1
It is reported commonly that there is FORNICATION among you, and SUCH FORNICATION as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, THAT ONE SHOULD HAVE HIS FATHER'S WIFE. (KJV)
Such fornication was that somebody was having sexual relations with his father's wife--probably his stepmother (Lev. 18:7–8; 20:11).
Leviticus 18:7-8
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
7 You are not to shame your father by having sex with your mother. She is your mother; you must not have sexual intercourse with her. 8 You are not to have sex with your father’s wife; it will shame your father.
Leviticus 20:11
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
11 If a man sleeps with his father’s wife, he has shamed his father. Both of them must be put to death; their blood is on their own hands.[a]
Footnotes:
Leviticus 20:11 Lit on them
Jude 7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to FORNICATION, and going after strange flesh (that of angels), are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (KJV)
We know what the term fornication refers to in Jude 7.
God gave Israel a certificate of divorce and sent her away for her unfaithfulness! That is God divorced Israel because she had fornicated. Can't we do the same?
Jeremiah 3:8
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
8 I observed that it was because unfaithful Israel had committed adultery that I had sent her away and had given her a certificate of divorce. Nevertheless, her treacherous sister Judah was not afraid but also went and prostituted herself.
Jeremiah 3:8
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
8 I saw that even though backsliding Isra’el had committed adultery, so that I had sent her away and given her a divorce document, unfaithful Y’hudah her sister was not moved to fear — instead she too went and prostituted herself.
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