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Author Topic: The Free Will Thing  (Read 2342 times)

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Rick

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The Free Will Thing
« on: October 05, 2013, 08:54:59 AM »


This free will thing is so deep that it blows my mind and me off the throne. I see God in full control of the entire universe with no exception to His rule or laws. ALL IS OF God right down to the smallest decision I make or rather think I make.

                                                        "  Rays Words in part D of Free will "



Maybe the biggest single aspect of "coming out of Babylon" is giving up the unscriptural "free will"/"free choice" idol of the heart. We've seen the sin for which, the King of Assyria was punished by God, the sin of "free self will." Believing that he, himself, had the power of will and choice to act independently of Godís foreordained intentions.


I understand I don't have free will as Ray has used multiple scriptures from part A through D from the free will series in pointing this out from the word of God and I believe IT.

So now as scripture says ( its not in man to direct his footsteps ) I see that , I really see that. Ray reference also free choice too and this I keep talking to God about trying to reconcile temptation as we are also told to mortified the deeds of the flesh.

So what's in my understanding concerning this is that we don't have free choice either so what ever choice I think I'm making is the only possible choice I could of make at the time I made the choice but the choice was of God as its not in man to direct his footsteps.



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Rene

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Re: The Free Will Thing
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2013, 10:18:47 AM »

Hi Rick,

Having "no free will" is probably one of the hardest truths for humans to fully comprehend, since we do make choices all day long.

Here is an email that Ray replied to that should help increase your understanding. :)


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1744.0.html

Free Will

Now that I got your attention, Mr Smith, I would like your comments on a brief subject.
 
If God causes circumstances that influences your decisions, then He is responsible for your desires. Correct?
If you are lazy or have no desire to accomplish anything in your life, then if must be God. Correct? Of if you desire to succeed in life, be accomplished in any profession, then it must be God. Correct? So, if God causes circumstances, then God must give you the desire to pray for accomplishment of that desire. Correct? If God causes (inspire) a person to pray for something (material or nonmaterial), then we should be excited and pray for it and follow-up with action to accomplish it.  What is your thoughts on this?
 
Thank you for your response.
 
Joe V.
 
P.S. I read your article on Answered Prayer. (to pray for God's will)
 

Dear Joe:

No, I have never said or suggested all of the things you state above. I understand that these things are "spiritually discerned," and that people frustrate themselves over trying to understand spiritual things with a carnal mind. When a man rapes a little girl, IT ASSUREDLY IS NOT GOD!  When one prays to be rich and famous, IT ASSUREDLY IS NOT GOD!  ALL IS OF GOD, but not is all of God directly.  God created man--man SINS, God if free from sin and never sins or MAKES OR FORCES anyone to sin. Neither does He FORCE people to be rich or famous. God created man and man chooses what he does based on the strongest motivation in his heart.
And most people's heart consists of lust, lies, blasphemy and the like.
 
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of HIS OWN LUSTS [whether for bad and evil things or for for what we may perceive as good things which may not be good or righteous things], and enticed" (James 1:13-14).
 
Man has the ability to make choices. He does not have the ability to make choices that are free from any cause. The "cause" of most of our choices is our mind and heart.  And of the abundance of our heart, our mind thinks, our tongue speaks, and in our body we take physical action.  Only God can give us a "new" and pure heart.

God be with you,
Ray
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Rick

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Re: The Free Will Thing
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2013, 02:14:02 PM »

Rene, I have not read this E mail you have given, its points are excellent and does help with my understanding. I have only one desire which is to receive the right understanding. I have many more thoughts about this free will series and will post them only for the feedback that will let me know and understand that I'm walking on the right path.

Thanks for your response Rene as this is what I'm seeking which is God's truth.
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The Professor

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Re: The Free Will Thing
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2013, 03:56:45 PM »

Exposing the myth of free will was one of the easiest things for me to accept and understand.

I liken a person's life to waking up out at sea on a raft not knowing how you got there.

Think about it, no one made the choice to be alive...that's like knocking down the first domino...all subsequent choices are made based on the fact that we are alive.

Also, when one considers we don't decide our sex, our race, what family we're born into, where we are born, when we are born, whether we have any physical disabilities, etc, etc, etc...

All these things have a 100% influence on our character and the decisions we make...this is common sense.
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AwesomeSavior

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Re: The Free Will Thing
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2013, 09:19:30 PM »

I know that human beings have no free will, but did Ray ever discuss whether God has a free will? I think I recall this conversation happening before, but I can't remember the answer. Can someone help?  Thanks.
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Kat

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Re: The Free Will Thing
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2013, 10:42:44 PM »


Hi AwesomeSavior,

Here are a few email that should help with your question.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5146.msg40669.html#msg40669 ------------------

Dear Dean:  Regarding the Forum's question as to whether God has a free will or not:
 
"Free will" is not a topic of Scripture. Humanity absolutely does not have a free will/free choice disposition. All thoughts and actions have a cause. God, however, is the First Cause. God answers to no one and no one dictates or causes God to think or do anything--all Protestant and Catholic prayers to the contrary included.  However, we are told in the Scriptures who "God cannot lie," for example or why God never "changes his mind."  This is a governing factor to God's disposition, but it is not an outside force. Here is how God thinks and operates everything in the universe:
 
"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works [operates] ALL THINGS AFTER THE  C-O-U-N-S-E-L  OF  H-I-S   O-W-N  W-I-L-L"  (Eph. 1:11).


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2142.0 -----------------------------------

Dear Micahel:
I will not debate you on your questions, however, I will make a few COMMENTS in your email, and that will be the end of it...........

 
Dear Mr. Smith,

I've been pondering your views on "Free Will" and it seems that we humans cannot make choices without "cause and effect (consequence)".

But, is not God also in the same boat??

COMMENT:  God is not in a "boat."  And, No, God is not on the same level as humans either.

Can even God have "Free Will" and make decisions (choices) without "cause and effect (consequence)"??

COMMENT:  The term "free will" means a will without a cause. The term "free choice" means a choice that has no cause.  Now then, Does man have a will that has no cause behind it? NO.  Does God make choices that have no cause?  We need to be very careful when we try to use words applied to humanity as though they equally apply to God. Choice can mean to pick from a number of possibilities.  In this usage, God does not make choices. God knows and always persues the ONLY WISE COURSE or action.  So if we mean by choice, Selecting that which we prefer, then God does in that sense make a choice, since He always does what He prefers to do.  But these things do not come from nowhere, nor do they come from an outside or higher power. There is no outside higher power than God.  But The Scriptures do tell us by what method or means God does what He does:

"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the PURPOSE of Him [God] Who works all things after THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL"  (Eph. 1:11).

There is your answers.


If the answer "Yes", then why does this answer not also apply to people, since we are in the image of God?

COMMENT:  We are NOT as yet "in the image of God." (Rom. 8:29).

If the answer is "No"", then God is not sovereign ---  since even He does not have "Free Will" and is subject to "Cause and Effect"

COMMENT:  This statement is nonsense.

God be with you,

Ray


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AwesomeSavior

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Re: The Free Will Thing
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2013, 11:19:02 PM »

Thank you, Kat   :)
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Pierdut

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Re: The Free Will Thing
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2013, 12:05:09 AM »

I am quite convinced that we don't have a "free will," although we do have a will (albeit one that is caused by one thing or another) and if there is a sovereign God that knows how everything will turn out then it cannot be otherwise,  meaning we can and will only make the one possible choice we could have made in any scenario in our lives, no matter how much we may regret it later, or regret that some other person has made a certain choice. What I have trouble with is loving God, because it also means that my life could not have been any different, and so it means that this is the life that I was predestined to have. If we had a "free will," and if there could have been [and were] multiple possibilities in every single event in my life, then I'd have no one to blame but myself for all the bad decisions I made, or for when things didn't turn out the way I had hoped.

It's ironic. Most of my life I avoided church and wanted nothing to do with God and religion (even though i come from a Christian family) and just wanted to live my own life according to my heart's desires and God would just not let me succeed. I didn't want a Christian / religious girlfriend / wife, I wanted the type of girls that don't wait 'til marriage, and that drink and party and stuff. And while I met some here and there, and had some success,  it would never last, and it would always come crashing down. And not just with women, but even male friends that I would indulge in worldly things with (drinking, smoking,  drugs, seeking women,  etc.).Now I am at a point where I am willing to go back to church even though I don't agree with their teaching just because I am having no success in life at all right now; either with women or other areas of my life - so if that's what it takes, then so be it.

Maybe that's where I'll meet my future wife, in the one place I avoided most of my life. Go figure, eh?
And if so, then God's got quite a sense of humor. I don't know. All I know is I feel drawn to attend church this Sunday,  and with all the problems in my life right now, and my parents who are visiting wanting me to go, and believing that the reason for them is because of my rebellion,  and many, many sins, and feeling like this is what I must do in order for this curse to end. I really do feel like I am cursed, because every time something would go good in my life (whether it's women,  or finances, or what have you) something would always put a stop to it, because had I succeeded, I wouldn't have wanted anything at all to do with God - in fact I both despised Him and disbelieved in Him - as contradictory as that is. Now I don't hate God, but I also don't love Him. I suppose it's because I don't love myself, and hate my life... So how can I love its Creator?

God knows my heart, so there's no sense in lying. It would take a miracle for my heart and mind to change - as well as for my life (to change). I can't just stop sinning,  or stop desiring what I desire - I can't just make myself "gay," or a eunuch. Although I've no doubt I'd have a lot better success with "men" than I currently do with women - I get hit on by more "men" than women, sadly. But I am NOT "gay" and I can not and will not go there. Thank God for that. Ray said that God has predetermined what sins you will commit, and what sins you wouldn't commit; and I've committed some truly horrendous sins, don't get me wrong. But my point here is the lack of "free will," because if we had it then there would be nothing causing me to desire certain things or stopping me from committing certain things (e.g., homo-sex, child-molestation,  murder, suicide,  etc, etc, etc,). [Refer to Ray's "Guilty of all" audio for this last bit]

« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 12:33:12 AM by Pierdut »
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Kat

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Re: The Free Will Thing
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2013, 02:10:01 AM »

Well Pierdut, I will say what I believe about why this world is the way it is, for you and me and everybody. God is sovereign and therefore He must determine how things will be, there is no free will and He has predetermined what will happen in this creation from start to finish. His wisdom is so very much higher than our rather feeble minds that we really can't comprehend the perfection of His plan, especially since we are in the middle (actually more like the beginning) of it now.

I believe He is creating a 'family' (seems like a good word for it) of beings that after they have reached perfection, they/us will have a very unimaginably great existence from then on. What I think we are involved in right now in this age is bringing into existence all the beings He wants for this family. First we are given life and experience of good and evil to develop our base character.

So He is giving us all a varied (there seems to be many extremes in this) life situations to create a broad variety in our personalities... serious types, easy going types, those who find humor in everything, people with inquisitive minds, differing talents and strengths and weaknesses etc. And think about how people have lived in so many different circumstances from the times in history, family class status, social setting, environment, etc. All these differing life situations that do arise from day to day... so there will not be 2 people who turn out the same, all will be unique. It requires all the vase differences in what people experience to have every single one to be somewhat different.

So I think God's plan is to bring about all the people that He wants that are a multitude of varied personalities now in this
present age as a base model from which to work with. For a few now, but for most in the next age the character traits that we have developed are what God will take and keep anything He deems as good and purge out the rest. I do believe that the judgment will be a process of complete justice for all. Every person will be dealt with exactly as they have need of, from lovingly caring for the young and innocent, to harsh as needs to be for the reprobate.

I have wondered about those that have lived extremely wicked lifestyles and as you commented, "we can and will only make the one possible choice we could have made in any scenario in our lives... because it also means that my life could not have been any different, and so it means that this is the life that I was predestined to have" and I agree.

Since I believe we have a totally just God and will bring every single being to perfection in the most just manner... so could it be that those that have been the worse sinner and will require the most purging and be brought out of the most damnable life situations, will they be those who realize they have the most to be thankful for?

I truly believe that even those that may have been born into a life of crime, live a long life as an hardened criminal with gross acts of inhumanity, and you get the picture, even the very most reprobate. Once these people have been purged and cleansed and taught to understand God's truth and believe them, as all will be perfected, so then these people will too have their heart turned to God. When they realize how far God has brought them and how much God has done for them, their happiness, joy and praise for God will be greater.

I believe that the only conclusion that any and every human being will ultimately come to, no matter what their physical life was, is that God gave them life and brought them to perfection and deserves all praise, honor and glory forever. This is my sincere belief from all I have studied, hope it may help you a bit.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 09:19:00 PM by Kat »
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cjwood

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Re: The Free Will Thing
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2013, 07:51:47 PM »

kat, it helped me.  i believe that what you have expressed is the truth of what is going on in this age.  thanks for posting your thoughts.

claudia
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Rick

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Re: The Free Will Thing
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2013, 08:38:45 PM »

I would like to thank all of you for your replies as they helped me with my understanding and that which I needed to understand I now do.

Love and peace to all of you here at B.T
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Pierdut

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Re: The Free Will Thing
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2013, 12:17:51 AM »

I would like to thank all of you for your replies as they helped me with my understanding and that which I needed to understand I now do.

Love and peace to all of you here at B.T

Hi Rick, glad that my post helped you in some way; that made it worth the effort it took to post it on my phone. I am sort of an anomaly here on BT, as God has opened my eyes to see a lot of things that goody-two shoe zealous Christians can not (yet) see, or understand. And this happened years ago [like in'05'], when I was a church-attending Christian, and new to it yet was troubled by the whole "Hell" thing. It seemed so cruel to me, so unfair,  and in fact even evil... very evil; the epitome of evil. Anyway,  I wanted to learn more about this "Hell" thing, see what others had to say, and was hoping for a more just punishment for the those who died without accepting Christ and were therefore, "doomed," so I did a Google search for "Hell" and up pops Bible-Truths. com, and some bloke named Ray is saying that there is no "Hell" and I thought well this is better than what I was hoping for (eternal annihilation or separation from God, anything but eternally burning alive in unspeakable torment and pain that never ends). Then I came to realize that we also don't have a "free will," and that's what lead to my departure from Church.  I was on the list to get baptized,  but realized that their teaching was wrong and unscriptural and so I didn't attend their water baptism.

Anyway,  I say 'anomaly' because I also left this site, left God and went back out into the world, big time. This, after learning these truths. But God wouldn't let me 'get away with it,' and has shown me that, well, He is God, for one, and that I can't just tell Him to 'buzz-off' and 'leave me alone.' I tried, it doesn't work. I have paid greatly for my defiance, and am still paying for it. I was left broken; brought to my knees begging God for mercy and forgiveness. And that's what lead to my return here... it took many months of peeking in here for an answer to one thing or another before I finally re-registered an account.

There are things I disagree with on here, but as far as scripture is concerned, we pretty much see eye to eye.

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Rick

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Re: The Free Will Thing
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2013, 02:27:12 AM »

Hello Pierdut, , Its all so incredible to me as well as mind boggling but there really is a God and  I had not only forgotten the church but I forgive them as they know not what THEY DO but the good news Is Jesus loves us and the father too . at first I became angry after reading the lake of fire series because I learned the truth as you did and everyone else also about hell ,its a lie its a fable its just plain wrong.

Everyone will be eventually saved and I think that is awesome and I love God because he will save everyone .  This free will thing is so important to understand as I see it as the narrow gate Jesus talked about. God's truth are here and God bless Ray with so much knowledge ,Like scripture says come out of Her and that's what I did thanks be to God who is all in all.

Love is the most important thing in the universe for without it we are nothing but its always God who gives the increase in all things. The greatest truth I learned here at Bible Truths is in the end everything is going to be OK for everyone ,the ends justifies the means.

Peace and Love to you my brother in Christ Jesus. No matter what, its all going to be OK for not only us but for everyone .Love God always as God is Good.
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se7en

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Re: The Free Will Thing
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2013, 12:28:02 PM »

Rick,

I love that you have read and reading the series on "no free will". That is definitely one of the biggest earth quake shattering events done within our heavens. Coming to the understanding and knowledge of this unseated me (that beast) on the throne.

Like you Rick, I asked the Father in earnest, to "please show me the truth, I don't care the cost. I just want to understand. Please show me!"  And I got what I asked for...  Little did I know that I, that first Adam in me, was about to be destroyed and is being destroyed (I die daily).

As Pierdut was saying, I got angry at God at first... angry at the church, angry at the world. HULK came out of me and did NOT want to let go of "free will".  He was there putting up quite a battle for a while. I went absolutely crazy. I understood and agreed with the concept of "no free will", but I just had to live it out... But as Truth grew in me, hulk subsided. I wasn't angry anymore.

And Pierdut, I know exactly what you mean... I've done all those similar things you speak of.  I honestly believe that's all part of the walk we are to endure. We all lose and leave our first love, and thank God He drags us back. It's all part of the walk. Your in good hands Pierdut :)

All of this (trial/tribulation) is for us, to develop the fruits of the spirit in us. Why does God desire us to be patient or thankful? Why does He command us to be thankful in all things?... always?  Because that brings about a fruit of the spirit... it also makes us feel happy.  Someone forgiven of murder is elated and extremely happy to know he has been forgiven... but given enough time and circumstances, that feeling or sense of "well being" subsides.  But when we think about the wonderful works of God and are THANKFUL for them, we are putting ourselves back into that frame of thought and a sense of happyness "well being" resurfaces.

I've recently been reading some psychology books and documentaries on "happyness". It's an attitude just like any other feeling. A mindset. Scientists have discovered that when basic needs are met.. i.e. food, clothing, shelter.... that everyone has the same level of happyness or lack of happyness. A 5 billion dollar rich man can be just as happy or sad as a person who lives in the slums in India. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. Granted there are major events that happen in our lives that can leave us sad or happy for a brief period, but it subsides.  It's easy to get complacent, not want to serve, the flesh is right here with us... but being thankful, thanking God, that changes our mindset to match His mindset and creates a sense of well being and feeling of happyness within us.

Shall we not receive both good and evil from God?  Of course!  But in all things we are thankful for it, because it's for our admonition, for our benefit. Learning to be content in all things. And this doesn't happen overnight, it takes time to develop the fruits of the spirit. There needs to be opposition in order to go THROUGH the trial and endure to the end. To develop the fruits of the spirit, which is what God is doing in the elect right now, it takes time, heat, and pressure. We are the one's being taught to live comfortably in the fire! NOW is judgement on the house of God, it's simply Grace teaching (chastening/judging/loving) us to forsake all ungodlyness and worldly lusts.

Before God showed me Truth, I was just ignorant. I was Blessed, the sun rose and fell on me too, but I was just dang ignorant (not being judged) and thought I knew God... BUT HAD NO CLUE! Thank God He has mercy on me in my ignorance.

It's all God's work. All of this. He's working it all! And I'm so thankful that He opened our eyes and ears to see and hear the Truth!  TO KNOW HIM!  That is life for the aion!

And because it's all Him and none of us....

Phil 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

You can take that to the bank. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Because it's going to happen, if it hasn't happened/is happening in your life now.  I believe everyone here has and is experienceing the "day of Christ", it's judgement day.

I LOVE IT!!!

I hope this was uplifting for everyone :)     
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microlink

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Re: The Free Will Thing
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2013, 03:10:49 PM »

Hi all,
Some time I feel the free will thing is so complex.
At other times it seems so simple:
We have a will. Christ had a will. We do not have "free" will. It's that simple.
What is free is the truth. It's the truth that sets us free. You know the scripture. Thank God for that.

Joh_8:32  And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
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se7en

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Re: The Free Will Thing
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2013, 05:18:27 PM »

So true Microlink,

I like Ovi's example. The domino.

I didn't choose to be here, my momma didn't choose to be here, her momma didn't choose to be here......

Carry that domino effect all the way back to Adam.  It takes faith to believe this, the faith of Christ... But the Lord does not leave us hanging...  It's not "blind faith".  It makes sense!!!! All based on God's Word :)

2 Thess 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

That delusion is so complete. Phew, out of all the people i've spoken to about this, only one seemed to be receptive to it. Because, wow, I choose when to go to the bathroom right?... etc... it FEELS like I'm in control.  I can see and have experienced the fear associated with "losing control". But our Father is so loving toward us... He is making us into the image of His son. That's the goal, that's the end process. To be like Him. The end is not "eternal seperation" or "eternal burning flames in a fiery furnace". 


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Rick

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Re: The Free Will Thing
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2013, 07:45:04 PM »

Hello Microlink, This is a message I had sent to Kat and also Kats response. I hope it helps you understand this free will thing.


(I understand this free will series but am trying to understand how the choices I make work within the parameters of its of God.
Would you say this is right , that all my choices are of God but not by God, example,  God  is the cause of whatever I do but my choice is being made with an exceedingly weak heart as this is how God made us / me, so if I'm in error God intended it to be that way but God himself did not do my error I did it, God is responsible but I'm accountable. Is this the right understanding or am I missing it.)

Thanks for your answer Kat
Love and peace from your brother in Christ.




Hi Rick,

That is pretty much it. One thing I always try to keep in mind is that God is sovereign and the ultimate cause of everything that can ever happen, that's why He claims responsibility. But yes we (through His causings) do what our carnal lusts lead us to do and since we actually do whatever we do/say/think willingly/voluntarily, because we want to do it, we are going to have to give account. And yes it is because we are made carnal too weak to resist the lusts of the flesh.

Kat


Peace and Love to all.
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Extol

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Re: The Free Will Thing
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2013, 12:04:02 PM »

Ray said that if something is true, the more you study it, the more you look at it, the more you will see that it is true. Free will is one of those things. It seems so simple and obvious now. One of the things I learned from Ray is that we don't even need the Scriptures to disprove free will. It is a scientific and psychological impossibility for anything--including a choice--to happen without a cause. Ask anybody why they do anything. What will the answer start with? "Because...."

Ah, that word means there was a cause, and if there was a cause, the action was not "free."
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