Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[lilitalienboi16]

Does anyone know of the places where ray speaks of this tense in greek which lends to the translation of "God is creating man in His image" and man is "being saved" as a process intead of these events having been a done deal as we see translated in the KJV and most of the english versions of the bible?

I'm trying to do a bit of a study on it and better understand how this interpretation is supported so that I can better understand why I believe, what I believe.

I do believe that this is the correct rendition of these verbs in the passage in which they are used and that the interpretation that God is creating man and in the process of saving him is also correct, but I'd just like to be better equipped.

Any help would be much appreciated!

Thanks!
Alex

[Nathan]

bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

It is universally taught (and believed) that Adam and Eve were already formed and created in the very spiritual image of God way back in the garden. This is not, however, how the Hebrew manuscripts read, as a perfect creature formed in the very spiritual image of God, that not only does not sin, but cannot sin. The reason that Jesus (made unto sinful flesh) did not sin, was not that He could not sin, but rather His Father WOULD NOT LET HIM SIN. Jesus was born with a physical body, and therefore that body had to die. But I assure you that Jesus did not possess a "carnal mind" in that body of flesh. He sinned NOT.

Making mankind into God’s own Image is a process that involves a lifetime of trials and tribulations that includes the crucifying and mortifying of the carnal human mind and body. I realize that from the King James and many modern translations it sounds like it was a "past tense" made in His image at creation, but actually it was not. Gen. 1:26-27 is equivalent to our English imperfect. Here is how one Version translates it:

"And saying is God, Make WILL WE [a continuing action] humanity in Our image…"

and

"And CREATING [a continuing action] is God humanity in His image" (Gen. 1:26a & 27a Concordant Literal Old Testament),

[microlink]

Hi Alex,
You might find this web site concerning Greek grammar helpful:
http://greek-language.com/grammar/
It explains the aorist tense as well as other points about Greek grammar.

[Oatmeal]

Hi Alex

If you open the very first article on the Bible Truths website ("You Fools! You Hypocrites! You Snakes!"), and do a search for "aorist", you will find something Ray wrote on "being saved".

Oatmeal

[lilitalienboi16]

Ok great thank you everyone for the information.

Microlink, Ill check out your website. Thats more along the lines of what I'm looking for.

I know the concordant literal and others translate the words properly but when I look at strongs in the KJV+ on my esword, there is nothing in the numbers that indicates any kind of imperfect tense. Nothing in the deffinition of the word for example "create" that suggests an active tense is being used like "creating" and often times uses the word "created" as the definition of the word in the past tense.

I guess I'm looking at what is it in the words that indicates this tense because strongs sure as heck isn't helping me out! So maybe seeing how ray came about that he trusted the concordant with this rendition (other than it makes sense when looking at the SUM of Gods Word, because I Do agree, it makes perfect sense).

Anyhoo, think you micro and everyone else, Ill check these things out.

God bless,
Alex

[Kat]

Hi Alex,

Here is another place Ray spoke on this.

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html -------

NOT YET IN THE IMAGE OF GOD

Most of Christendom have been taught and believe that God created (past tense) man in the very "image of God." Oh really?

So if we want to see what the "image of God" really looks like, all we have to do is look at the vast sea of evil, sinning humanity? Or maybe you believe like many that Adam and Eve WERE (past tense) in the absolute, very IMAGE of God when they were created, but then lost that "image" when they sinned?

Few indeed realize that being made into the image of God is much the same as being saved—IT IS AN ONGOING PROCESS!

Check all the verses in the original: "now saving," "to save," "shall save," "might save," "are being saved," etc. "For by grave ARE ye saved through faith…" tells us HOW we are being saved, not WHEN (Eph. 2:08). Verses such as I Cor. 1:18 in the King James, "…but unto us which ARE saved it is the power of God," is not a faithful rendering of the Greek. Check an interlinear. The words are thus: "…to-THE YET ones-beING-SAVED US…" Yes, often the original manuscripts have only endings and not the complete word, as in "ING." It clearly shows and uncompleted action.

Creating man in God’s image:

King James Version: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness… So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; make and female created He them" (Gen. 1:26a & 27).

Concordant Version: "And saying is the Alueim [Hebrew: elohiym, gods or used of the supreme God--plural of elowahh, a deity or the Deity], Make will We humanity in Our image, and according to Our likeness… And creating is the Alueim humanity in His image. In the Image of the Alueim He creates it. Male and female He creates them" (Gen. 1:26a & 27).

So we see here the same thing we have already discussed with regards to the Greek aorist tense of verbs, as in "For God so lovED the world" versus "For thus God lovES the world." God’s love for the world CONTINUES! And creating man in God’s image also CONTINUES!

Lustful, carnal-minded, sinning, Adam and Eve were no more in the complete image of God at their physical creation than the Apostles were completely converted during the schooling under Christ’s teaching. It is all an ongoing process. We are even still being converted, and still being perfected, and still becoming more and more like God. How often I have heard preachers remark how Adam and Eve where in the very IMAGE OF GOD. THE TRUE IMAGE OF GOD DOES NOT SIN!

"For whom He did foreknow He also did predestinate TO BE conformed to the image of His Son…" (Rom. 8:29).

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we SHALL also bear the image of the heavenly" (I Cor. 15:49).

Presently, only Jesus Christ is the true "Image of God" (II Cor. 4:4).
----------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Thank you kat! Your post had exactly what I needed! The interlinear greek!! I found what I was looking for by downloading Interlinear scripture analyzer!

It has it all, the greek and then the word for word translation in english beneath it and it is translated "creating" "being saved" "saving" etc.. etc..!

God bless everyone and thanks a ton for your help!

[lareli]

Does anyone know of the places where ray speaks of this tense in greek which lends to the translation of "God is creating man in His image" and man is "being saved" as a process intead of these events having been a done deal as we see translated in the KJV and most of the english versions of the bible?

I'm trying to do a bit of a study on it and better understand how this interpretation is supported so that I can better understand why I believe, what I believe.

I do believe that this is the correct rendition of these verbs in the passage in which they are used and that the interpretation that God is creating man and in the process of saving him is also correct, but I'd just like to be better equipped.

Any help would be much appreciated!

Thanks!
Alex

Im not the smartest person when it comes to rules of grammer or anything like that but the idea that God is creating us is supported in a few scriptures even without an in depth word study... The verses that help me understand why I believe we are being created,

Gen 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live for ever”—

Eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil made man more like God than he was before he ate. So Man could not have already been made in the perfect image of God.

Heb 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Gen 3:22 shows that having the knowledge of good and evil made us more like God which was a good thing right? Not only was that a good thing to become more like God possesing the knowledge of good and evil, but Heb 5:14 adds that we should not only posses a knowledge of good and evil but we should use it and excercise it.

Then you can consider the verses that say we will judge angels and such in the next life... how can we make any righteous judgement without the knowledge of good and evil?

Not sure if that helps as you were asking for more academic help in understanding. But for an un-academic person as myself, these scriptures tell me what I need to know in order to believe that He wasnt finished creating us in the garden.