Man's spirit at Death

[greenef]

Hi All;
In Ecc 12:7 at death the body is said to return to the Earth and man's spirit returns to God who gave it. What happens to the spirit after this? And could it be in heaven as some people think? Could this be the spirit that we will get at the resurrection?
Thanks, Frank.

[Kat]

Hi Frank,

Here is a few places that Ray spoke on this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html -------------

Eze 37:8  "And I beheld, and lo, on them [are] sinews [tendons, strength, muscular power], and flesh [muscles, fat, etc.] has come up, and cover them does skin [the outer covering of a physical body] over above--and spirit there is none in them."

I know of no "spiritual" tendons, muscles, fat or skin, that are put on physical "bones" to remake a "spiritual" man. This is a PHYSICAL resurrection of the dead, Eze 37:10 "And I have prophesied as He commanded me, and the Spirit comes into them, and they live, and stand on their feet--a very very great force" (Ezek. 37:10).

Notice that it takes the spirit from God to give these dried bones life once more. They then "stand on their feet." This is the exact and precise definition of the word "resurrection." It means to "stand up" upon one's feet, but the word itself has nothing to do with being "spiritual" or "immortal" whatsoever.  Jesus raised a little girl and Lazarus from the dead, and they stood up on their feet and lived—they were not made spiritual bodies or given immortality. Likewise those saints resurrected at Christ's resurrection, were not given spiritual bodies or immortality.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,655.0.html -------------

The consciousness is not in the body, and it is not in the spirit. The consciousness of man is in his soul, and his soul is resultant outcome of our spirit being united with a body. God breathed the breath and spirit of life into the man formed from the dust of the ground, and the man then BECAME a living soul. He BECAME conscious of his own being. At death we are no longer conscious of our being or our death. Our spirit must be reunited with a new body in resurrection before we will regain the soul and consciousness that we had before we died.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,644.0.html -------------

Don't make up phrases such as you have: "In spirit will I know myself?"  There is no such thing as "being in your spirit."  As a "being" you need a body. When your body dies, your "being" dies, your soul is gone (to the unseen, imperceptible--there is NO perception in death: not in your body, not in your soul, and not in your spirit). No one can live without a body. When our spirit is combined with a body, then and ONLY THEN do we have "soul" which is consciousness. At death no one has consciousness, or it wouldn't be death.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1675.0.html --------------- 

Yes, there is a spirit in man (AND ALL ANIMALS). Nothing can live without "spirit." Spirit IS life (Ecc. 8:8; Ecc. 12:7; Luke 23:46;  I Cor. 2:11; etc.).  There is no consciousness in our spirit alone. There is only consciousness (soul) when man's spirit is combined with a body. God retains our spirit until resurrection when He puts our spirit into a new body and we once again become conscious or receive back the quality of "soul." We are said to have new "spiritual" bodies, not that we are made "spirits."

    God be with you,
    Ray

[greenef]

Thanks Kat, you were very helpful!
May God b;ess!
Frank

[se7en]

I just have to say I love God's Word! I love the truth! When greenef or anyone has a question like this that they are unclear on or don't know about... 

**BLAMMO**

The truth gets set on the table and we eat it.

I love it

Thanks for posting greenef and Kat!

[Ian 155]

I just have to say I love God's Word! I love the truth! When greenef or anyone has a question like this that they are unclear on or don't know about... 

**BLAMMO**

The truth gets set on the table and we eat it.

[lareli]

What about the thief on the cross? Is he in paradise with Jesus?

[Kat]

Hi largeli,

Here is a couple of places where Ray spoke about the thief on the cross and paradise.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6936.0.html --------------

Dear Harris:  I do not mean to put a kink in your armor, but I will give you just a little instruction on one of your major premises:

"Lu:23:42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. The thief was asking Jesus to remember him when he came into or established his kingdom {The millennial reign} and notice the unexpected answer he received.

Lu:23:43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. He said today, not tomorrow or a thousand years from now but that today he would be with him in paradise. Now your answer would normally be 'oh yeah' when we die we will be with him..."

If this verse of Scripture is true according to your interpretation, then it contradicts most of the major teachings in the entire Bible concerning, repentance, overcoming, producing much fruit, enduring to the end, and resurrection of the dead.  One cannot pervert the entire Word of God by merely misplacing a comma (,).  Here are better renderings of Luke 23:43:

"And Jesus said to him, 'Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise.'" (Concordant Literal New Testament).

"And he said unto him—Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise" (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible).

Even you gave Scripture showing that the wages of sin is "DEATH."  Why do you then deny it in your paper.  "Jesus DIED for our sins according to the Scriptures."  He was not merely "crucified for our sins."  No, HE D-I-E-D. And when people DIE, Harris, they are DEAD. I can't believe that it would be necessary for me to provide a Scripture to prove such an elementary concept, but I will:

Jos 1:1 Now after the DEATH of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,
Jos 1:2 Moses My servant is DEAD..."

Well there you have from God Almighty Himself.  When a person DIES, he is DEAD.  So when you change that to some other unscriptural nonsense, you are treading in dangerous territory.  Jesus was NOT in the Christian hell of eternal torture, nor was He preaching to spirits in some pagan hell, neither was he in a place called "paradise."  Jesus was doing in the tomb exactly what He was prophesied to do and what He was commissioned to do by His Father--He died, and was therefore DEAD, until His Father Resurrected Him FROM THE DEAD.
Jesus' Father did not resurrect Jesus of Hell or from Paradise.  Jesus was DEAD in the tomb until early Sunday morning, and so was the thief DEAD.

Now the difference between these two deaths is that Jesus was resurrected from the dead, but the thief was NOT--he is still dead, awaiting resurrection.  If Jesus was not DEAD when He DIED for our sins, then you don't have a Saviour, Harris! And neither does anyone else!  This is mighty important stuff you are contradicting in your paper.  Do you not pay attention to the many hundreds of Scriptures that refute you paper?....

Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that He rose from the DEAD, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Harris:  If Jesus "rose from the DEAD" how say you that He was NOT EVEN DEAD TO BEGIN WITH?  If Jesus "rose from the DEAD" how say you that there is no resurrection of the the DEAD THIEF," but that he is presently LIVING in a place called "paradise?"

I am sorry I don't have time to critique your entire paper, but I receive many requests to read hundreds and thousands of pages of papers, books, Internet sites, etc., but I just am not able. So I cannot comment on your entire paper. However,  I hope my little critique on this one point does not anger you.
God be with you,
Ray

PS   Another minor point:  The thief did not ASK to be with Jesus in Paradise, did he?  NO, he did not. He asked Jesus to "remember him when Jesus came in His kingdom."  Now then, Did Jesus say, "Yes, of course, I tell you that TODAY you with be with Me in My kingdom?'  Did Jesus answer Him thus?  NO.  Well what in the world then did Jesus mean that the thief would be with Him [at some future date, not "today," but "shall be with Me," which is future tense] "in paradise?" 


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,979.0.html --------

It is not kosher to quote half of a verse when it has a larger context.   Jesus did not begin a sentence with: "TODAY you shall be with me in paradise," did He?  No, Jesus said: "Verily I say unto thee TODAY shall you be with Me in paradise."  But even that is King James translating, and King James is not inerrant.  Notice how the great scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham renders this verse:  "Verily I say unto thee this day:  With me shalt thou be in Paradise."  But as a footnote he suggests that "This day with me shalt...." as a possibility. So what's the solution?  God tells us how to solve this Verse and every other verse of Scripture:  "That no prophecy of scripture becomes self-solving" (II Pet. 1:20, Rotherham), "That no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its OWN explanation" (Concordant LNT).
We must go to other Scriptures to explain what is mean by this Scripture.

But is this what theology does?  No, theologians say this this verse EXPLAINS ITSELF--"That VERY DAY the thief when with Christ TO HEAVEN."  Oh really?  That is not what the REST of the Bible teaches.

DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that?  Is there any Scriptural justification for that?  NO, no there isn't.  In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis to heaven?  Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures.  "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden."

There is the mention of only two primary "gardens" in Scripture: The "tree of life" (Gen. 2:9) is found in Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:9).  And what else is that Garden of Eden called?  Answer: "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God" (Rev. 2:7).

[1]  The "Garden of Eden."  Was that garden, "heaven?"  What did we find in that garden:  (1) the knowledge of EVIL, (2) rebellion and SIN, (3) a flaming SWORD, (4) the pronouncement of CURSES, and (5) the lying SERPENT (Satan--Rev. 12:9).

[2]  The "Garden of Gethsemane."  Was that garden "heaven?"   What did we find in that garden?  (1) The Apostles DESERTED Jesus in this garden,  (2) Judas BETRAYED Jesus in this garden, (3) an army of wicked elders, scribes and chief priest with clubs and SWORDS, (4) Jesus is carried away from this garden to be CRUCIFIED, and (5) This garden contained the TOMB in which the DEAD Jesus was placed.

Do any of this evils in these two paradise gardens sound like "heaven" to you?   I don't care if there are NO commas in Luke 23:43.  Commas do not make or break the Scriptures of God.  This verse does not contradict hundreds and hundreds of other Scriptures as the Church teaches it does.  That day, "today," both Jesus AND the thief, DIED AND THEY WERE DEAD

God be with you,
Ray

[lareli]

Thanks Kat.. That helps. 

[lareli]

What about Elijah and Moses conversing with Jesus on the top of the mountain when the disciples saw Jesus transfigured? Shouldn't Elijah and Moses had been dead in the grave?

[John from Kentucky]

What about Elijah and Moses conversing with Jesus on the top of the mountain when the disciples saw Jesus transfigured? Shouldn't Elijah and Moses had been dead in the grave?

Elijah and Moses were and are as dead as dirt.

If you closely study that Scripture of the transfiguration on the mount, you will find that it says it was a vision.  It was not reality.  Moses represented the Law.  Elijah represented the Prophets.  The voice said to hear Jesus Who is above the Law and the Prophets.

[Kat]

Hi largeli,

I think the reason for the appearance of Moses and Elijah in the vision was to symbolize the law and the prophets. Moses and Elijah embody and represent two aspects of the Jewish religion that God was working through up to the time of Jesus' earthly life. The Law of God spans the entire OT, so too does the role of the prophets, whose purpose was to provide a witness and a warning at critical times. Jesus Christ united in Himself those two aspects, as He himself said.

Mat 5:17  "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Another reason why those two great prophets of the OT were present at His transfiguration was to testified about Jesus Christ. God who had just prior to this revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Christ of God.

Mat 16:16  Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
v.17  Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

But now being overwhelmed by this spectacular vision Peter misspoke/misunderstood, "did not know what to say" (Mark 9:6), and "as they (Elijah and Moses) were departing" (Luke 9:33) Peter quickly suggested they could build a place for Elijah, Moses and Jesus (right along with them), so all 3 could stay there. Peter appeared to be honoring Moses and Elijah equally with Jesus. God immediately boomed His answer from heaven, revealing to Peter that Jesus was not the same in nature as Moses (the law) and Elijah (the prophets), but was equal in nature with God (as His actual Son).

Mat 17:4  Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us[1] make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah."
v. 5  While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!"

Moses and Elijah only pointed the way to the Messiah, the old covenant. Jesus' message is not in conflict with them, but neither is it just an addition to their words. Moses wrote the Law which anticipated the sacrificial atonement of the Messiah. Jesus was joined by them in the vision to indicate that He was about to fulfill the Law and the Prophets with the new covenant. When Christ came to earth, Moses and Elijah were to be removed - in the vision "they were departing."

This vision was to make such a strong impression on these three of the primary disciples so that they would never again doubt, when Jesus spoke, His words were the truth from God... and it certainly did. Their later recounting of this event would likewise testify to others (and even to this day) that Jesus always spoke the truth of God.

2Peter 1:16  For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
v. 17  For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
v. 18  And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
v. 19  And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;

mercy, peace and love
Kat