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Gethsemane

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Oatmeal:
In the recent Syria thread I said that I had difficulty with the idea that Jesus prayed to the Father that he would not have to go to the cross.  A couple of members replied/responded to my post and then the thread digressed from that subject.  In order to reply to the responses I have re-posted the question in a new thread.

Scripture references in blue are links to those Scriptures (for your convenience).

My post in the Syria thread:


--- Quote from: Oatmeal ---
I have great difficulty with the idea that Jesus prayed to the Father that he would not have to go to the cross.  I know that is what the mainstream church teaches, but does it truly make sense, and does it agree with Scripture, and with the attitude that Jesus displayed up to that point in time?

Using the King James Version, according to the Scripture, as recorded in Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death", and as recorded in Mark 14:34: "My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death".

Is it possible that at that time Jesus was under such spiritual/emotional/physical pressure (whatever the reason) that he was praying to the Father that he would not die right then and there in the Garden, and his Father heard him, hearing him meaning, (as hearing does mean, doesn’t it?), that the Father said YES to his request?


--- End quote ---

The first reply:


--- Quote from: Craig ---
So does it make more sense for His Father to answer yes to the prayer to not die in the garden, and then turn around and let's Him suffer and die a horribly painful death on the cross??


--- End quote ---

There seems to have been a lack of thought in the above response.  Perhaps there was a lot of thought in the above response and it is me that is not thinking.

We are aware that Jesus’s death on the cross had/has a purpose, and that that is a fact that is beyond disputation.  If the "exceeding sorrowful unto death" means that Jesus was experiencing sorrow to the point of the cessation of the functioning of His physical body, that is, physical death, would there have been any purpose in Jesus dying in the Garden?  It therefore does make sense that the Father answered yes to the prayer to not die in the Garden, if sorrow to the point of death, and such a prayer, did occur.  The phrase "turn around" is therefore more emotive than sensible and shows, I think, a determination to push a point of view whatever the cost.  If such a prayer did not happen in the Garden then the true situation needs to be logically and clearly explained, steering clear of emotive responses as such responses are more likely to be indicative of a closed mind and error rather than openness and truth.  Such emotive responses are also dangerous.  If such a prayer did occur in the Garden, then the phrase "turn around" maligns the Father, and I think that more care needs to be taken.  If such a prayer did not take place, then perhaps it is I that is maligning the Father, although that is not my intention.

The second reply:


--- Quote from: Kat ---
Hi Oatmeal, what that prayer Jesus prayed says to me is that though the plan is absolutely determined, but by the Father. Jesus no doubt understands the will and general direction the Father is going very well, but maybe not all the future details. He did say He did not know the day and hour of His return to earth.

Mark 13:32  "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

I do not believe Jesus was asking not to die then or later, He knew that all human life depended on that. But He was a physical man and certainly had seen a crucifixion at some point, maybe His request was to "let this cup pass" or that particular way of dying. That it was possible that the Father had already determined He would die another way and that was the reason He asked. But we know He ended the prayer with "nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." He was willing to do whatever He had to, and He did!


--- End quote ---

Thank you Kat for your reply.

I think you said that you believed that Jesus was not asking not to die in the Garden, and was not asking not to die later, but was asking for clarification of details of death, as he was unsure about the method of death, and stating that He would prefer not to be crucified (to die on a cross).

Do you think that the following Scriptures reveal that Jesus was fully aware, before the time of his prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane, that He was to die on a cross?:

Jesus commanded us to each take up our cross, and follow Him: Matthew 10:37-39; Matthew 16:21-25; Mark 8:31-35;
Luke 9:22-24; Luke 14:26-27.

In three of the passages above the death of Jesus is directly linked to each of us taking up our cross.  Would not the insistence of Jesus that we each must take up our cross show that He Himself was fully aware that He would take up His, and that His cross would also be a literal physical one?

John 8:28 (LITV)
Then Jesus said to them, When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM; and from Myself I do nothing; but as My Father taught Me, these things I speak.

John 12:32-33 (KJV)
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Deuteronomy 21:23 (see Galatians 3:13 )
…for he that is hanged is accursed of God…

Psalms 22:16-17 (KJV)
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

Therefore, Kat, assuming that I understood what you said, I do not understand the basis for your claim that Jesus was seeking clarification as to the method of His death and requesting that it would not be by crucifixion.

Furthermore:

Luke 9:51 (possibly in conjunction with Isaiah 50:7)
And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,

John 12:27
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

Considering that Jesus emphatically commanded each of us to take up our cross, and to die, and that He had already said that He would be lifted up, signifying what death He would die (and He was aware of the prophecy in regard to the piecing of hands and feet), and that He had steadfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, and that even though His soul was troubled He confirmed His commitment to continue and not to ask His Father to save Him from the hour, how can it be claimed that Jesus suddenly, upon reaching the Garden, changed His mind and ask to be excused from the cross?  Would not that make Him double minded?  Whatever it was Jesus was requesting in the Garden, it was something that He was requesting with PASSION, and with great determination, with fervour, and with COMMITMENT, and when an angel appeared unto Him to strengthen Him, HE PRAYED MORE EARNESTLY.

To not have to go to the cross?  The mind boggles.

(Luke 22:39-46; Hebrews 5:7-9)

If Jesus was referring to the cross, why did Jesus pray "Not my will, but thine, be done", when Jesus already knew the will of the Father in that matter?

Jesus said: "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30)

Jesus said: "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34)

Is this teaching, that Jesus prayed to the Father that he would not have to go to the cross, saying that Jesus did not want to die for us?

This teaching does not make sense to me.  Could someone provide further explanation?

Thanks

Oatmeal

gregorydc:
Maybe the prayer was because Jesus loved his deciples and had more to teach them and was not ready to leave them just quite yet?  Love is a very powerful force/emotion in this vast universe. Considering that God is love, Jesus said "I and the Father are one",maybe imo this is what this prayer is about?
  Greg

Kat:

Hi Oatmeal,

Mat 26:36  Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, "Sit here while I go and pray over there."
v. 37  And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed.
v. 38  Then He said to them, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me."
v. 39  He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will."

The words in this passage "this cup" is certainly speaking of His Crucifixion, and yes all the Scripture that you presented make it clear this way of death was preordained for Him. But just as it's clear that the Scripture show that the "cup" was to be by death on the cross,then it also shows that is what He was speaking of to "let pass" as well.

If that is what He was saying, then what does it mean? Well consider what state of mind Jesus was in; "sorrowful and deeply distressed," "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death," "being in agony, He prayed more earnestly," this is denoting the deepest anguish and how intense His prayer was. And He even "fell on His face," a demeanor of praying in extreme duress. I think He used “even unto death” to show just how much distress He was in. He was in so much anguish that an angel was sent to help Him and give Him strength.

Luke 22:43  Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him.

Why in the world was He so distraught over this? All your Scriptures prove that He knew what was coming and He was God in the flesh, so why this passionate, almost desperate plea to be spared from what He knew He had to do? He was fully God, but He was also fully man, often referring to Himself as the Son of man, which He uses a few verses down. As a flesh and blood man, was Jesus to experience the depth of human suffering physically and mentally? Luke goes on to say Jesus was so distraught He continued to pray and began to sweat profusely.

Luke 22:44  And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Jesus was human, a man as well as God, there is nothing inconsistent or double minded in supposing that as a man he was very deeply disturbed/troubled by what was now rapidly approaching. But He received the help He needed from the Father and so He did resolve in His own mind what He must do, as you can see by His second and third prayer.

Mat 26:42  Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done."

Mat 26:44  So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Now He has resolved (I think the Father gave Him peace with what must happen) that He must go forward and drink of that cup which awaited Him.

Mat 26:45  Then He came to His disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.
v. 46  Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand."

A thought that I have is that this struggle that Jesus had within Himself was to show that even though He was God in the flesh (which some might say gave Him the strength to easily endure His suffering and death), He was still fully flesh and blood man and He would suffer just as much as any human being would.

But I know this is my interpretation of this passage, it is what I see in it though.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

cjwood:
kat, i agree with the understanding that Jesus, as a man of flesh and blood as are we, became so greatly distressed at the ultimate physical pain and suffering He knew was coming that He cried out loud to His Father.  Jesus knew how horrible a death the cross was.  the human part of Jesus did what most any human would do knowing they were going to be crucified.  become stressed to such depths of despair that they need help just to stand up.

claudia

Joel:
How many times had a lamb been slain before Jesus travailed at Gethsemane? many, many times.
No one had ever felt the sins of the whole world on their shoulders before, and no one else ever will.
Had to have been untold pressure, and torment both mentally, and physically.
Jesus was very aware of what was coming as recorded in Matthew 20:17-19
17-And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them.
18-Behold, we go up to Jerusalem: and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death.
19-And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Joel

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