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Gethsemane
lilitalienboi16:
I watched a show on the history channel where they had physicians (US trained doctors) on explaining how it is possible for the human body to sweat blood under extreme extreme duress. They then also went on the explain the excruciating pain Jesus' body felt during the crucifixion etc.. but they talked about crucifixions in general as well.
I just think its interesting how they made that statement that you can sweat blood. We know Jesus in the garden prayed this prayer and its recorded for us that He did indeed sweat blood. Modern science knows this occurs only under extreme extreme curcumstances. This tells me He must have really been extremely stressed because after all, despite His divinity and being the Son of God, He still was bound to this fleshy vessel that was about to experience something absolutely horrific and HE KNEW IT!
I add this in without having read the original posters statements but to lend credence to what claudia had stated in her reply. Now I am aware of this exchange that occurred in the other thread so I will add to this:
I think Oatmeal, you should see it not as Jesus not wanting to do the work of His father, but His earthly body that carried Him was under extreme duress and in its moment of weakness His mind cried out to God looking for a way out but full well knowing (because of the Spirit of God that He also possessed, "not my will but thy will be done") that this is what He came for. To do the will of His Father.
In Christ,
Alex
rickylittleton:
Well, just my 2 cents: Let us remember that He was in all ways temped as we are, yet without sin. Jesus was our example of going in the valley of the shadow of death. Now no wants to go, but remember He said, "Not my will but Thy will be done". So this give us to know that when we face our hour of being tried, He has already shown us, and is our example. Timothy
G. Driggs:
Hello Oatmeal,
Jesus was being tempted constantly by Satan to make things easier for Himself. I dont see how this time in the garden is any different.
Likewise no one wants to be crucified with Christ spiritually. The beast within puts up a mighty fight, so we must be dragged to Christ and the cross. I can personally say for myself that I do not want to stop sinning. But that really isnt up to me.
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tested in every way as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Therefore let us approach the throne of grace with boldness, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us at the proper time.
Here a couple places Ray speaks along the same lines as others have already said in this thread.
http://www.bible-truths.com/praying.htm
THE GREATEST DRAMA OF THE AGES
If you like drama, then Matt. 26:36 is the place to find it. Few pay close attention to what is really going on in these few verses of Scripture. The humanity of Jesus is brought into direct conflict with the will of His God and Father. First I will jump ahead of our story slightly so that you understand the setting of this greatest of all prayers in the history of the universe. After praying for one hour Jesus returns a short way back to His Apostles and says:
"Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak" (Matt. 26:41).
Was the "flesh" of Jesus any stronger than that of His apostles? No, it was the same flesh. Paul tells us that, "…there is ONE kind of flesh of men…" (I Cor. 15:39). Jesus was given this same "one kind" of flesh (John 1:14 & Rom. 1:3). And so the flesh of Jesus was just as "weak" as that of His Apostles. Jesus instructed His apostles to stay awake and pray with Him for one hour. None of them could do it. None of us could have done it. They just ate a meal and they were now sleepy (not only physically sleepy, but especially spiritually sleepy.) Now back to the beginning of this great drama:
"Then comes Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and says unto the disciples, Sit you here, while I go and pray yonder [over there.] And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee [James and John] and began to be SORROWFUL, AND VERY HEAVY. Then said He unto them, My soul [His fleshly, conscious humanity, not His spirit] is EXCEEDING SORROWFUL, EVEN UNTO DEATH [spirit doesn’t die, it is our flesh that must die.] Tarry [stay] you here, and watch with Me.
And He went a little farther, and fell on His face, and prayed saying, O MY FATHER, IF IT BE POSSIBLE, LET THIS CUP [this cup of death—being beaten beyond recognition, being made sin offering, and crucified for the sins of humanity] pass from Me: NEVERTHELESS, NOT AS I WILL, BUT AS THOU WILL" (Matt. 26:36-39).
"And there appeared an angel unto Him from heaven, strengthening Him. And being in an agony He prayed more earnestly: and His sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground" (Luke 22:43-44).
I doubt that any of us can ever fully appreciate what unfathomable human trauma and agony was taking place for those three hours in the garden that night two thousand years ago. The eternal destiny of the entire human race was at stake, and Jesus KNEW IT! And believe me, Jesus’ Father was agonizing right along with His Son:
"In all their afflictions, He [GOD] was afflicted… in His love and in His pity He redeemed them…" (Isa. 63:9).
"Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He SUFFERED" (Heb. 5:8).
And oh how Christ was suffering that night in the garden! But right there in the garden is the answer to all prayer. "O MY FATHER… nevertheless, not as I will, BUT AS THOU WILL." Jesus not only prayed that way; Jesus thought that way:
"I can of Mine Own Self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not My Own will, but the WILL OF THE FATHER WHICH HAS SENT ME" (John 5:30).
And again:
"For I came down from heaven, not to do Mine Own will, but the will of HIM THAT SENT ME" (John 6:38).
Did Jesus pray as earnestly as it is possible to pray that God would "let this cup pass?" YES, He did.
Did God grant Jesus His desire to "let this cup pass?" NO, He didn’t.
But, did Jesus get His prayer answered? YES, He surely did. How so? Because Jesus’ greater desire was that His Father’s will be done, rather than "let this cup pass." This example from our Lord is the answer to answered prayer and it is also the answer to unanswered prayer.
http://www.bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html
JESUS CHRIST DID NOT POSSES FREE WILL
I am sure that there may be more than a few out there who are by now ready to start casting stones at me. But don’t take my word for anything. Check the Scriptures.
The theory of free will argues that anyone possessing this God-defying power can freely choose his own course in life by making his own decisions and choices that are CAUSED by no thing or no one. Every free-willer is said to have the power to do or not do, to think or not think, anything they wish, without anything causing them to do contrariwise. So surely Jesus possessed this power as well, did He not? Not.
Here is a blanket statement of Scripture that proves Jesus did no more have a "free will" than anyone else does:
"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, but what He sees the Father do: for what things so ever He does, these also does the Son likewise" (John 5:19).
Do you know of one Scripture that contradicts this verse in John 5:19? If you don’t then you must admit that Jesus could not do anything by a supposed "free will" which is said to have the ability to act independently of God.
But wait, there’s more:
Jesus plainly had a will, but the Father willed that Jesus would bring His will into line with that of His Father. The Father would not allow Jesus to give up the good fight of faith. It pleased God to bruise His Son for our salvation,
"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief: When you shall make His soul an offering for sin…" (Isa. 53:10).
God said that He would "make" the soul of Jesus an offering for sin. God doing the "making" is the CAUSE. Therefore, Jesus was not free to run from the cross. God inspired Jesus [caused] Him to pray. And God caused Jesus to pray that His Father’s will, would be done, not His Own will. It was a real battle for a few hours. The will of Jesus cried out for another way other than to drink the cup and go to the cross. Hour after hour He poured out His heart to His Father. And hour after hour His Father propped Him up so that He would not and could not give in to His flesh.
God MADE Jesus go through that spiritual battle of His will, but never for a second was the plan of God in jeopardy! God had clearly prophesied the positive outcome of this battle hundreds of years before its actual occurrence. And absolutely nothing in the history of the universe has ever thwarted God’s plan, purpose or intention.
The Father inspired [caused, made] Jesus state time after time, "Not My will but Thine, Not My will but Thine, NOT MY WILL BUT THINE"!!
It was the very words of His Father that Jesus prayed. Those words that came out of the mouth of Jesus first came out of the heart of His Father, and God’s Words never ever return to Him void.
"So shall My word be that goes forth out of My mouth [and into the mouth of Jesus]: it shall NOT RETURN UNTO ME [as when Jesus prayed back those same words to His Father] VOID, but it SHALL ACCOMPLISH that which I please, and IT SHALL PROSPER in the thing whereto I sent it" (Isa. 55:11).
Oatmeal:
Thanks for the replies everyone.
There are some aspects of the story of the Garden of Gethsemane that I still cannot accept.
* Everybody groans *
* How can Oatmeal be so thick *
When I say "the story of the Garden of Gethsemane" I am talking about what we are told about the story that is inclusive of things that the Scriptures do not actually say, and thus cannot be agreed with Scripture and cannot be proved as factual.
Please be patient and please make a true and genuine effort to understand what I am saying, putting aside the temptation to read quickly because you already "know the facts" of the story.
Let me give you two facts to start with, facts that to the best of my ability and knowledge are verified by the Scriptures.
The Scriptures do not say that "this cup" (as opposed to "the cup") is the Cross.
The Scriptures do not say that Jesus was sorrowful because He was thinking about the approaching Crucifixion.
Search the Scriptures and see for yourself.
The above two "facts" have been added to the Scriptural account, and then more has been added to that.
Even if you should adamantly insist that those things have those meanings it does not make it so, nor can it make it so.
I am definitely open to correction in this. I do ask that you do read and consider carefully before formulating any reply.
I have written a reply to Kat, and for convenience and to save time I will leave things in that format:
Hi Kat, and thanks everyone for your comments.
--- Quote from: Kat on October 09, 2013, 06:36:04 PM ---
The words in this passage "this cup" is certainly speaking of His Crucifixion…
But just as it's clear that the Scripture show that the "cup" was to be by death on the cross…
But I know this is my interpretation of this passage, it is what I see in it though.
--- End quote ---
The Scripture does not say that "this cup" is the cross. It is you that says that. Because you think that it must be the cross, you say that it is the cross. You are aware that the Crucifixion is coming up, and you assume that "this cup" is the cross.
Let us not go beyond what the Scriptures say in this, and let us listen to and take note of what the Scriptures say, using the version that you used:
From Matthew:
Matthew 26:36-38 (NKJV)
Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, "Sit here while I go and pray over there." And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed. Then He said to them, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me."
From Mark:
Mark 14:32-34
Then they came to a place which was named Gethsemane; and He said to His disciples, "Sit here while I pray." And He took Peter, James, and John with Him, and He began to be troubled and deeply distressed. Then He said to them, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch."
The word "troubled" in Mark is translated in the KJV as "sore amazed" and in the CLV as "overawed".
The Scriptures say that this experience of sorrow and deep distress began in the Garden. The word "began" shows from Scripture (it is not speculation) that this experience was not happening before Jesus got to the Garden and that it began after He got there.
What was the cause of the sorrow? Where did it come from? The Scriptures do not say, so why should we speculate on that? However you speculate, and you assume, that it was because of the cross. Where do you get that idea? It’s not from the Scriptures, because the Scriptures do not tell us that.
Perhaps there is a clue. The experience of sorrow started suddenly. It was not there, and then it was. Does that mean that the source was external? Let’s not consider that matter any further at this time.
In the sentence spoken by Jesus: "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death.", here is a definition of the word translated 'to':
Short Definition: until, as far as
Definition: (a) conj: until, (b) prep: as far as, up to, as much as, until.
So what was Jesus saying, without us speculating, without us adding, without us taking away, but by looking at the words?
My soul is sorrowful, as far as, to the point of, death.
Jesus was experiencing sorrow to the point of the cessation of the functioning of His physical body. We know this without any doubt, we know this without question, and we know this without using speculation. The Scriptures tell us so. Jesus told us so.
Jesus was committed in going to the cross. We are sure of this from the Scriptures. He was not double-minded in His purpose. But suddenly, we are told (not by Scripture), even though He was about to die in the Garden, Jesus became unconcerned about that and very concerned about trying to get out of going to the cross. He became so concerned about trying to get out of going to the cross that He completely forgot that He was about to die in the Garden.
You have got to be kidding me.
Remember that the Scriptures do not say that "this cup" was the cross. You did. The Scriptures do not say that the sorrow was because the Crucifixion was approaching. You did. The Scriptures say that the sorrow began after Jesus arrived at the Garden and that Jesus experienced sorrow as far as, up to, as much as, until, death. Take note of what the Scriptures say, but go no further. Do not add to the Scriptures.
Jesus was about to die, and He had to resist that death with all of His being.
I did not make it up that Jesus was about to die, in the Garden. It is not speculation on my behalf. It is not assumption. I did not dream it up one day while lying in bed. The Scriptures say so.
Jesus was about to die, and He had to resist that death with all of His being. An angel was sent to strengthen Him.
Do you think that an angel was sent to Jesus to give Jesus the strength to ask even more fervently to get out of going to the cross? Was the Father now being double-minded?
"This cup" was the cup that Jesus was experiencing right then and there in the Garden.
Jesus announces to the three disciples that He is sorrowful, even to death. He asks the disciples to watch with Him. His attention is focused on the immediate problem, and it is a serious one. He immediately goes and asks for "this cup" to be removed. What cup? The cup of the cross? How could it be the cup of the cross? How could Jesus, not only because of the sorrow unto death that He is experiencing but because of His commitment to His Father, and to us, suddenly lose focus on the immediate problem of His experiencing sorrow unto death, so much sorrow that it is about to kill Him, and focus instead on making a request to get out of going to the cross, the cross which had already been decided on and agreed to?
This may be somewhat of a silly example, but let’s say you are crossing the road, and on the other side you are going to give your life for somebody, something that you have decided to do. Suddenly you notice a huge truck bearing down on you, about to squash you and kill you right there and then. Would you focus right then on the giving of your life which you are going to accomplish once you cross the road, and decide that you don’t want to do it anymore, or would you cry out to God for deliverance from the truck, because you desire greatly to give your life for the purpose previously decided?
Remember that nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that Jesus was experiencing sorrow because He was thinking about the approaching Crucifixion. That thought has been added to the Scriptural account. That thought is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures.
Hebrews 12:4
You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin.
How could making a request to get out of going to the cross be resisting sin? Please explain.
Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
Jesus went back to the disciples and told them to "Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." What was His temptation, His test? In what way was His flesh weak? Was He trying to get out of going to the cross, or was his life being crushed out of Him in the Garden?
Why did Jesus offer up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death? (Hebrews 5:7)
Was Jesus offering up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears, to be saved from death on the cross?
Did Jesus pray: "Not what I will, but what You will" in reference to the cross, knowing and being fully aware that He knew and knew clearly what the will of the Father was in regard to the cross?
Or was it because He did not know what the reply of the Father would be in the matter of His request to be saved from death in the Garden, being fully willing to drink that cup if that was His Father’s will, praying: "O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done."?
Jesus asked for "this cup" to be removed from Him, He wanted "this cup" to be removed, and He was willing to forgo His own will in the matter.
What was "this cup", and was it removed?
…and (He) was heard because of His godly fear
Oatmeal
Kat:
Oatmeal, there are Scripture that clearly indicate that the "cup" was the cross.
John 18:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, He went out with His disciples over the Brook Kidron, where there was a garden, which He and His disciples entered.
v. 2 And Judas, who betrayed Him, also knew the place; for Jesus often met there with His disciples.
v. 3 Then Judas, having received a detachment of troops, and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, came there with lanterns, torches, and weapons.
v. 4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, "Whom are you seeking?"
v. 5 They answered Him, "Jesus of Nazareth."
Jesus said to them, "I am He." And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them.
v. 6 Now when He said to them, "I am He," they drew back and fell to the ground.
v. 7 Then He asked them again, "Whom are you seeking?"
And they said, "Jesus of Nazareth."
v. 8 Jesus answered, "I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,"
v. 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."
v. 10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
v. 11 So Jesus said to Peter, "Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?"
In this passage it is rather obvious what the cup is. Another place is in Matthew 20, which it is inferred, but it show "My cup" when speaking of His death and that of the disciples as well.
Mat 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, "You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?" They said to Him, "We are able."
v. 23 So He said to them, "You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father."
The "cup" that He was about to drink was the "baptism" of His suffering and death and all but one (John) of the disciples would also have violent deaths. Jesus also spoke of how He was "distressed" over this baptism/death and this is quite some time before Gethsemane. Here is another place in Scripture that it ties in the distress He was feeling in connect with what He knew was to come.
Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!
So here are the Scriptures that show me that the "cup" that He wanted to pass in Gethsemane was most certainly His suffering and death, if you see it differently, well that is your business.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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