Die once after this judgment

[microlink]

I have been reading previous threads from a few years back and have come across a number that are spiritually insightful - IMO.  One I found starts with the scripture in Hebrews 9:27 that I have questions about

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

After reading some of the posts on this thread which dealt with the second death and some other things, I would like some forum members to share their thoughts on this scripture in Heb 9 and how it relates to other scriptures dealing with the subject of "to die".

But first, one post in that old thread included the following comments:


Rev: 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death

When speaking of the second death to eternal torment theologists and believers you can easily establish that the second death is spiritual. They don't believe it is annihilation but separation. Now that you both understand it is a spiritual death, you can rightly define the second death to them:

Paul died twice. You died twice. Everyone will die two times, some now, who won't be hurt of it later. Some endure God's judgement today. Most likely they will roll their eyes and say you are just taking it out of context and blah blah. But the seed is planted for a WHOLE LOT of other scriptural reasons the lake of fire is a good thing for humanity.

I have some difficulty with this analysis and comment.

And so, my main question - is this expression "once to die"  referring to physical death, spiritual death or both? It goes on to say and after this judgment.

I do not know if Ray discussed this scripture, I could not find him referring to it.

The CLV renders Heb. 9:27 this way : And, in as much as it is reserved to the men to be dying once, yet after this a judging.

From my reading of the scriptures regarding death and dying, a person could conclude that the verse Heb 9:27 refers to the physical process of dying. This seems to be substantiated by the context of Heb 9 and the scripture in Genesis 2:16 also. We know that the non-elect will be judged in the lake of fire in a future eon.

First point - since  everyone is dead or in the process of dying, are all subject to and eventual judgment?

It does not appear to be so unilaterally with the elect because of it says in I Pet. 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? How can this be reconciled with Heb 9:27 which mentions eventual judgment?

But we can find that many scriptures refer to spiritual death to sin and not to a physical death. This would be like a metaphor. Such as in:

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7  For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10  For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Am I on the right track in seeing Heb 9:27 as meaning the physical act of dying  (only once) and other scriptures often refer to death from sin through Jesus Christ?  But it still leaves me wondering about dying once and then judgment in this verse in Hebrews and reconciling it with I Pet 4:17. I know the holy scriptures DO NOT contradict.

[santgem]

-----------------Bump!----------------

[microlink]

Thanks John from Kentucky for referring me to Ray's paper Instalment 16E. I have read it many times.

This follows after my question regarding Heb. 9:27

Just about everything in Ray's paper I agree with.  Everything about Hades and the meaning, of all the references that Jesus made about Hades, the truth about the Lazarus parable. I have learnt a great deal from Ray over the last decade, more from him than from any other person who has explained scripture publicly.

Now to my question and comments. I do understand that God is a consuming fire through which He judges humanity. Ray devotes many scriptures to show that to us and he is so very correct on this basic point.

It is when Ray gets into the references to judgment of the elect, it is there that I have questions.

And so I have to question some of the few statements he makes within that part of his paper dealing with the elect.

I will address this here in this post. Ray's writings are shown in green. Scripture is in blue. My comments in normal text. Rays statements are given in sequential order with the first beginning in the section SOME REFERENCES TO JUDGMENT UPON THE ELECT: Instalment 16E.

(writings from Ray in GREEN)
There are many Scriptures showing that there will be "Judgment" upon God's Elect and upon the wicked. We will now look at some Scriptures that show us this Judgment is symbolically represented to be by FIRE.

YES. I agree. Then he writes.

ALL FIRES ARE THE SAME ONE "CONSUMING FIRE" OF GOD

Are they all the same? Yes they probably are. But can't fire be described differently depending on its intensity and specific purpose?  God never says that His fire is one fire. Sure, we can infer this. Most definitely, God's ultimate purpose is to reconcile all of humanity to Himself through fire. And surely they are described symbolically but are real.

In the section entitled "GEHENNA FIRE/EONIAN FIRE IS THE LAKE OF FIRE": Ray writes:


And it is clearly stated that "The lake of fire IS the second death" Rev. 20:14 and 21:8.  The lake of fire is JUDGMENT, and the lake of fire is the second death. Therefore: the SECOND death IS GOD'S JUDGEMENTS UPON BOTH THE WICKED AND THE ELECT!

The second death is the second death, period. How can it be judgment also? It is not.
Continuing from Ray:

Revelation shows us that the "lake of fire" is where all humanity will be "judged" (Rev. 20:13), and this lake of fire is the SECOND death:

Is the lake of fire where all humanity, including the Elect will be judged? I wonder. The lake of fire is only mentioned in Revelation and no where else. Why is that? Is it because the lake of fire is for all of humanity who are not the Elect. Therefore the lake of fire would occur at the white throne judgement. The LOF pertains only to the final judgement.

Next in the section on The Second Death:

We learned that Gehenna fire, and unquenchable fire, and eonian fire, and the furnace of fire, and being salted with fire, and the lake of fire, are all the same fire, and this fire is JUDGMENT

Again, are they all the same fire? Yes fire is how God judges, but can't all the different terms describing God's fire have different attributes, depending on it's specific purpose and time? Many references to God's fire apart from that described in Revelation are for the Elect, but the Lake of Fire is kept for those in the final judgment, that is the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is unique in that it is reserved for the final judgment. Therefore there are different forms of His fire depending on His specific purpose and time.

Ray goes on in this section to say :

Now then, since the lake of fire is judgment, and the lake of fire "is" also the second death, if follows that the second death also "is" judgment. THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH.

This is where I run into a problem. Is judgment really the second death? Or is the second death a description of a final pronouncement, a termination, concluding all that went before, including His judgments. And that is when everything finally results in God being All in All.

The sins of mankind are of all types. Some are more heinous than others. The evil people of history will be subject to a harsher judging than those who do good by this worlds standards, but are not the Elect.

Luk_12:47  And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk_12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

God's fire which is also symbolic of being beaten by stripes, some with many and some with few.

Continuing then Ray states that:

Had God wanted to make things easy, He could have inspirited Heb. 9:27 to read like this: "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the SECOND death."

It seems to me that Ray has gone a bit far in suggesting that God could have made things easy by inspiring scripture another way. Not a good idea to suggest that God could have inspired it differently.

And in the same paragraph:

For that is what the second death is, JUDGMENT. Likewise then, Judgment is the SECOND death. After the ONCE to die comes the SECOND to die. Or: After the FIRST death comes the SECOND death. Simple enough when God gives us eyes to see. But there is still an enigma about this verse that we will cover a little later.

There is much here to consider. Is the second death judgment. No. Because judgment has already been completed with the introduction of the second death? And there is no correlation between the words once and the word second.

Finally look at the scriptures in revelation concerning the second death as related to the Elect.

Rev_2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev_20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

(CLV) Rev. 2:11 "'"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."
(CLV) Rev: 20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years.

These two versus in Revelation tell us that the second death is has nothing to do with the Elect. For the Elect who are in the first resurrection the second death are not hurt or injured (has no effect) and has no jurisdiction and no power on them. They are ruling and reigning with Jesus Christ.