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Author Topic: The English Imperfect (Ray's 12 Truths Paper)  (Read 1672 times)

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DEdesigns57

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The English Imperfect (Ray's 12 Truths Paper)
« on: October 11, 2013, 11:17:46 AM »

In Ray's "The 12 truths to Understanding his word" paper I dont seem to understand why and how a claim that Ray made is true for truth #1.
First let me quote him:
Begin Quote:
"I realize that from the King James and many modern translations it sounds like it was a "past tense" made in His image at creation, but actually it was not. Gen. 1:26-27 is equivalent to our English imperfect. Here is how one Version translates it":

"And saying is God, Make WILL WE [a continuing action] humanity in Our image…"

and

"And CREATING [a continuing action] is God humanity in His image" (Gen. 1:26a & 27a Concordant Literal Old Testament),
End Quote:

He is saying that the above translation of Gen 1:27 is correct based on a single grammatical principle which is that it's Equal to "Our English Imperfect".

How did he go about deriving and concluding such a statement?( its kinda is like he just threw it in there as a self evident truth or something.)


Thanks in advance and may the Most High grant us with understanding and love
David
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Kat

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Re: The English Imperfect (Ray's 12 Truths Paper)
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2013, 01:19:51 PM »


Hi David,

Welcome to the forum  :)

Here is an answer posted in another thread - 'Creating, Being Saved... Ariost Tense, Greek' you can find on the general board right now.

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html -------

NOT YET IN THE IMAGE OF GOD

Most of Christendom have been taught and believe that God created (past tense) man in the very "image of God." Oh really?

So if we want to see what the "image of God" really looks like, all we have to do is look at the vast sea of evil, sinning humanity? Or maybe you believe like many that Adam and Eve WERE (past tense) in the absolute, very IMAGE of God when they were created, but then lost that "image" when they sinned?

Few indeed realize that being made into the image of God is much the same as being saved—IT IS AN ONGOING PROCESS!

Check all the verses in the original: "now saving," "to save," "shall save," "might save," "are being saved," etc. "For by grave ARE ye saved through faith…" tells us HOW we are being saved, not WHEN (Eph. 2:08). Verses such as I Cor. 1:18 in the King James, "…but unto us which ARE saved it is the power of God," is not a faithful rendering of the Greek. Check an interlinear. The words are thus: "…to-THE YET ones-beING-SAVED US…" Yes, often the original manuscripts have only endings and not the complete word, as in "ING." It clearly shows and uncompleted action.

Creating man in God’s image:

King James Version: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness… So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; make and female created He them" (Gen. 1:26a & 27).

Concordant Version: "And saying is the Alueim [Hebrew: elohiym, gods or used of the supreme God--plural of elowahh, a deity or the Deity], Make will We humanity in Our image, and according to Our likeness… And creating is the Alueim humanity in His image. In the Image of the Alueim He creates it. Male and female He creates them" (Gen. 1:26a & 27).

So we see here the same thing we have already discussed with regards to the Greek aorist tense of verbs, as in "For God so lovED the world" versus "For thus God lovES the world." God’s love for the world CONTINUES! And creating man in God’s image also CONTINUES!

Lustful, carnal-minded, sinning, Adam and Eve were no more in the complete image of God at their physical creation than the Apostles were completely converted during the schooling under Christ’s teaching. It is all an ongoing process. We are even still being converted, and still being perfected, and still becoming more and more like God. How often I have heard preachers remark how Adam and Eve where in the very IMAGE OF GOD. THE TRUE IMAGE OF GOD DOES NOT SIN!

"For whom He did foreknow He also did predestinate TO BE conformed to the image of His Son…" (Rom. 8:29).

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we SHALL also bear the image of the heavenly" (I Cor. 15:49).

Presently, only Jesus Christ is the true "Image of God" (II Cor. 4:4).
----------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: The English Imperfect (Ray's 12 Truths Paper)
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2013, 02:34:16 PM »

As Kat posted.

Also, in my search I came across the Interlinear bibles which translate everything from hebrew to greek to english all in a literal manner.

Here is what you see in that passage:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/gen1.pdf

Go to Genesis 1:26 on that page and notice the literal translation of " We WILL make " followed by 1:27 " He IS CREATING, ELOHIM, THE HUMAN, IN IMAGE OF HIM"

This is in part how He arrived to that deduction. Also, with the information presented in the Word of God, we know carnal sinning adam and eve were never in the image of God but rather that Jesus Christ, perfect and sinless and blameless is in the image of God. We see a HUGE difference between Jesus and carnal man and therefor, by reason provided by the spirit of God, we can know, that there is no way God CREATED (past tense, done deal, finished) adam in eve in His image but rather that He is in the PROCESS of CREATING man in His Image. To be Sons and Daughters of God.

And yes, welcome to the forums! Hope you will stick around!

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 02:36:59 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lilitalienboi16

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Re: The English Imperfect (Ray's 12 Truths Paper)
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2013, 02:42:20 PM »

Also, Kat left this part out in her quote of the paper but I believe its important, atleast as to the perspective you're coming from.

"Check all the verses in the original: "now saving," "to save," "shall save," "might save," "are being saved," etc. "For by grave ARE ye saved through faith…" tells us HOW we are being saved, not WHEN (Eph. 2:08). Verses such as I Cor. 1:18 in the King James, "…but unto us which ARE saved it is the power of God," is not a faithful rendering of the Greek. Check an interlinear. The words are thus: "…to-THE YET ones-beING-SAVED US…" Yes, often the original manuscripts have only endings and not the complete word, as in "ING." It clearly shows and uncompleted action."

From the same paper that Kat quoted from.

If you look up all these references in the King James to SAVED and CREATED etc.. youll often times find that they are literally translated as an active present action such as BEING SAVED or CREATING etc... Not that we ARE SAVED but rather that we are BEING saved. We also know that in accordance with scripture, these literal translations make sense and are accurate. God didn't inspire the scriptures to be written in a specific manner without a reason. There is good reason why we find these things written as they are however, in translation, much of these reasons are lost and the meanings become different, giving way to all kinds of false doctrines and blasphemous notions (Such as Eternal torture, Jesus Christ being a failure and incapable of saving His creation, that God isn't sovereign etc... etc...)

Hope this information helps. The interlinear analyzer is a great tool if you want to double check these things for yourself!

I know I looked up immediately the quote from Corinthians 1:18 and found ray to be exactly spot on!

In Christ,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

cjwood

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Re: The English Imperfect (Ray's 12 Truths Paper)
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2013, 04:44:46 PM »


How did he go about deriving and concluding such a statement?( its kinda is like he just threw it in there as a self evident truth or something.)






hi david, and welcome to the forum.  i bolded part of your statement above to clarify that ray never just threw anything "in there" as a self evident truth or something.  every important Truth which ray wrote about was backed up by the Holy Scriptures.  he did not write throwing in things just to be "self evident". 

claudia
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loretta

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Re: The English Imperfect (Ray's 12 Truths Paper)
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2013, 03:18:35 AM »


 ray never just threw anything "in there" as a self evident truth or something.  every important Truth which ray wrote about was backed up by the Holy Scriptures.  he did not write throwing in things just to be "self evident". 

Very true and that's what I loved about Ray.  You can be absolutely sure that everything Ray wrote or spoke about was backed up by scripture 100%, we like to say it in India. :)
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