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[G. Driggs]

Pierdut,

Most of us can relate to how you are feeling and what you are going through. Maybe this is how judgment is?

2Th 1:4  Therefore we ourselves boast about you among God's churches--about your endurance and faith in all the persecutions and afflictions you endure.
2Th 1:5  It is a clear evidence of God's righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God's kingdom, for which you also are suffering,

This seems to be the norm if God is saving you. It's gonna get pretty hot up in here, but hang in there it wont take long. 

1Pe 5:5  Likewise, you younger men, be subject to the elders. And all of you clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
1Pe 5:6  Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, so that He may exalt you in due time,
1Pe 5:7  casting all your care upon Him, because He cares about you.
1Pe 5:8  Be sober! Be on the alert! Your adversary the Devil is prowling around like a roaring lion, looking for anyone he can devour.
1Pe 5:9  Resist him, firm in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are being experienced by your brothers in the world.
1Pe 5:10  Now the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ Jesus, will personally restore, establish, strengthen, and support you after you have suffered a little.

All is of God and He cares or else He wouldn't have caused all these encouraging replies to you. 

[Craig]

Why all the vitriol against John?  I wonder if it is because of the reply to the OP, or the statement about syrupy responses? Perhaps there is more back story in play?  In some cases a helping hand and "sun will come out tomorrow" replies help the most.  Other times an in your face "get over yourself" response is better.  Is one more right than the other? Does all get used by God? 

We don't know what all the OP is going through.  And sometimes we are led to only lift a prayer for them; other times we may be led to kick their butt, sometimes we may be somewhere in between.  I have more respect for someone who acts on their intinct than those who act on their conditioned response.  Instincts are the raw clay God molds, conditioned response is what Ray referred to in his "Kiss of Death" article. Where any of us individually fall is something only we can evaluate in our own lives and takes some real soul searching. Personally I have learned to trust my instincts.  I think that is closer to God, or at least it is the clay He can work with.

I wonder why the response from the OP was directed at John's post but the others drew none? did John's post make the OP consider his circumstances more, who is to say?  On a forum it is hard to not to get our feathers ruffled, but when I see the responses I see sometimes, it seems the OP is forgotten and it is ourselves and our own egos that get pricked the most and that is what we are aguing about. 

Nobody is suggesting that anyone whose response is more encouraging is fake, but neither should someone suggests anyone whose response is more of a kick in the pants, makes them a bad person. 

Craig

[onelovedread]

So now it seems as if we're resorting to conjecture and setting ourselves up as judges? Pretty  tragic turn of events when we start analyzing motives of those crying for help. Hope it doesn't lead to people bearing their own burdens for fear of censure. Sad

[walt123]

Hello all

Is any one,sad,suffering,feeling hopeless,tired of trials,feeling sinful,than help is on the way.

Call 1 800 JFK-help

Walt

PS love you JFK.

[mickiel]

I don't know how much longer I can go on like this. Why does God hate me so much? After all, did He not create me? Why would God create something He hates? I never asked to be born; now I'm just looking to find a way out. I just can't win; I try and try and things just constantly go wrong in my life - I can't catch a break.  My life consists of seeing other people have what I never will - I will never be happy, neither in this life nor the next (if such exists, and I hope it doesn't). You can't comprehend the misery I feel, the hopelessnes,  and the rage.

I tried coming to God for help, but that too was in vain. Either He doesn't exist, or He doesn't care, and just hates me, and therefore gets pleasure out of my suffering.

There is no worse feeling than trying and trying, and giving it all you got only to fail time and time again. It's as if some mysterious force was working against me not letting me succeed in life. So what can I do? What's the point of laboring 10 hours a day 5 days a week, and then putting in 6-7 hours on Saturday when it's all for nothing? Really what is the point?

I don't care if you laugh; saying "what a loser" or whatever. It is not for lack of trying - I am not lazy, I am just cursed. Something won't let me succeed,  and it is beyond my ability to do something about. So what am I supposed to do? I've prayed, I've tried to repent, and it all just seems like it was in vain.

Well I certainly relate to some of what your going through, I am going through some of it myself. I am not into the " God hates me thing", nor am I a member of the camp that believes God hates sinners; because I think God's Love and hate, is nothing like ours. When he Loves; he has a certain kind of Love, and when he hates, its conversely a certain kind of hate, which I think no human can correctly define. I believe that God will both ignore and keep a distance from certain people for his own reasons; and living like that is a real suffering for that human. Especially if that human is aware that God is doing that to them, we then can react to it in all kinds of mannerisms. Living without God is just rough; I have never known what living with him is like; I imagine it is a wonderful thing. When you don't know why the suffering, I doubt that anybody who is not suffering will correctly understand what your going through anyway. Its easy to judge someone's suffering, its harder to go through the suffering.

When we keep trying and keep falling, there is no Joy in that; it becomes hard to " Experience all the good things the bible promises", and it seems those promises are just not meant for you.

I have prayed for you , and I feel for you; you help me to know that I am not alone in this particular kind of suffering. I have discovered that you can actually overcome sin after sin, actually be getting better, but still the suffering continues, and God seems not to care; seems like he will not draw close to you, so sin is not always the cause of this unusual situation.

All I can say is that if God has one in it, then that is where they will be; who can straighten what God has bent? If God has bent you, you cannot straighten yourself out, and nobodyelse can either. IF he has bent you, your better off than if you bent yourself; because there then is a divine purpose he has for doing it. And that purpose may never be understood in this life?

The way I see it, no matter how bad it gets, never stop trying; never stop believing, and never give up hope for release. The other choice is to just give up. I think what Job said is encouraging; " Though you slay me, yet will I trust you."

And God certainly slays and bends certain people; for whatever reason? I certainly don't know why!

May you suffer better.

Peace.

[lilitalienboi16]

I had originally removed my post because it seemed overwhelmingly that my interpretation of the OP was in the minority.

I leaned much more towards Johns perspective on the matter, minus the "hate" part.

The OP seemed to need a good "kick in the butt" or "wake up" and less of the "mememe" as I had originally put it.

I see now, after craigs responce, that it is wrong for me to hide what I felt God was leading me to say.

I Post this in clear conscious but with a lack of information from the OP as well. I can only comment on what it seems to me is occuring.

My biggest reason for what I was feeling was "Losing the will to live..."

I know I can be overly harsh on myself because of my sinful behavior but I don't think that is the same as believing I'm curse and that I don't want to live anymore. I tend to take my overly harshness as my nakedness being exposed. It is a painful thing to realize.

This post, however, feels different.

I feel like a politician now... going back and forth but I guess its not right for me to throw my thought on the matter out, especially if I feel it spoken in clear conscious, and then retract it due to being in a minority.

I do love all my brothers and sisters in Christ dearly!

Words of Wisdom were once spoken: Open rebuke is better than secret love.

I'm not accusing anyone of "secret love" or "the kiss of death," merely speaking of my own self and what moves me to respond as I did and as I am now.

With love,
Alex

P.S. Please don't take my post as a "choosing of sides" merely something I had to do to clear up my conscious in this matter as it was bugging me.

[Extol]

Some have suggested feeling thankful by comparing yourselves to others who are in a worse situation. This method has been helpful to me time and time again...when I've been sick, when I've been lonely, when I've been out of money, etc.

I learned about this method from one of my favorite books, Robinson Crusoe. His father told him to be thankful and content with the very ordinary life he had--because he was a lot better off than the poverty-stricken, and he didn't have all the headaches and worries that come with being rich. After he was shipwrecked on a lonely, far-off island, Robinson remembered the wise words of his father. After a period of feeling sorry for himself, he realized he actually had a really good life all by himself on his island. I read this book several times as a youngster, and it's a lesson I've never forgotten. Some quotes:

“I learned to look more upon the bright side of my condition, and less upon the dark side, and to consider what I enjoyed, rather than what I wanted : and this gave me sometimes such secret comforts, that I cannot express them ; and which I take notice of here, to put those discontented people in mind of it, who cannot enjoy comfortably what God has given them, because they see and covet something that he has not given them. All our discontents about what we want appeared to me to spring from the want of thankfulness for what we have.”

“It put me upon reflecting how little repining there would be among mankind at any condition of life, if people would rather compare their condition with those that were worse, in order to be thankful, than be always comparing them with those which are better, to assist their murmurings and complaining.”

“These reflections made me very sensible of the goodness of Providence to me, and very thankful for my present condition, with all its hardships and misfortunes ; and this part also I cannot but recommend to the reflection of those who are apt, in their misery, to say, Is any affliction like mine? Let them consider how much worse the cases of some people are, and their case might have been, if Providence had thought fit.”

“But how just it has been! And how should all men reflect, that when they compare their present conditions with others that are worse, Heaven may oblige them to make the exchange, and be convinced of their former felicity by their experience...”

[cjwood]

craig, for my own part, jfk's post reply to pierdut was not so much about the "syrupy kisses" as it was john's statement that he could easily "hate" pierdut.  and his calling out of those who's personality is more compassionate and merciful as fakes is just ridiculous.  yes, we all need a swift kick in the butt craig and john, but i don't think the time to do it is when the person needing uplifting is down and in the dirt of despair.  call it what you want, bottom line is it is unloving.  i was reading through more of the old emails to ray last night and i never saw anywhere in his responses words such as jfk used towards pierdut, when people wrote him about the turmoil in their lives.  he almost always said he would pray for them.

i just can't get onboard with anyone who says (especially publicly) they can easily hate another brother. 

claudia

[Dave in Tenn]

Conversion can be such an ugly process.

[Pierdut]

craig, for my own part, jfk's post reply to pierdut was not so much about the "syrupy kisses" as it was john's statement that he could easily "hate" pierdut.  and his calling out of those who's personality is more compassionate and merciful as fakes is just ridiculous.  yes, we all need a swift kick in the butt craig and john, but i don't think the time to do it is when the person needing uplifting is down and in the dirt of despair.  call it what you want, bottom line is it is unloving.  i was reading through more of the old emails to ray last night and i never saw anywhere in his responses words such as jfk used towards pierdut, when people wrote him about the turmoil in their lives.  he almost always said he would pray for them.

i just can't get onboard with anyone who says (especially publicly) they can easily hate another brother. 

claudia

I am getting a strong impression that I won't be voted the BT Mr. Congeniality this year.   

Good thing the Kingdom of God is not a democracy. 

Ray wrote an article called Why Does God Love You?

In that article, Ray wrote that God hates both sin and sinners.  Ray quoted 14 Scriptures to support that God hates sinners.  I agree with those Scriptures.  One of those Scriptures is:

If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, God's curse be upon him.  1 Cor. 16:22 Moffatt Translation

In Pierdut's first post above, he states that he is filled with hopelessness and rage and a lust for physical things that others have.  Pierdut questions if the next life (the Resurrection) exists and he states that he hopes it doesn't.

Pierdut also says that either God does not exist, or doesn't care and takes pleasure out of his suffering.

The statements made by Pierdut are not of the Spirit of God, and thus he is not my brother.

I won't tolerate such statements made by people in my presence.  I will speak against them.  That's just the way it is.

It is NOT physical 'things' that I 'lust for' or desire; neither money nor fame. If I were that materialistic then I would have been deserving of your scorn.

I don't take any pleasure in my suffering. If you meant that I said that God takes pleasure in my suffering, well, then, I don't know, that's what it seems like at times.  And I believe I was asking a question not making an assertion. 

I quess that scripture you quoted means that I was right about being cursed. I am not sure, but I think that it could be because God won't let me live the life I want(ed) to live, and thus wouldn't let me succeed while trying to live apart from him. I am trying to figure it out; am I cursed and therefore hopeless,  or is there still hope for me? Although that would entail not only being  willing to give up on some things, but also being able to actually do so. And as Ray has taught, I have no freewill, so, ultimately what God predetermined will come to pass; I'll just choose accordingly. 

[Rene]

Conversion can be such an ugly process.

But the end result will be quite beautiful!

René

[cjwood]

There is no such thing as hopeless. 




we all may be hopeless at some time or other in our lives, as we life in this body of flesh john.  that does not mean we remain hopeless, but we experience a feeling of hopelessness.  there are many reasons one may have a time of feeling hopeless.  i remember you felt "too devastated" at one point in your life, per a post reply by you to another forum member, to do anything but fall on your face in prayer and supplication.  was this feeling of being too devastated not also a feeling of being hopeless, in light of what was transpiring in your life john?  no matter how short or how long you experienced that feeling of being "too devastated" or "hopeless" (as in pierdut's situation).

claudia

[Deborah-Leigh]

........am I cursed and therefore hopeless,  or is there still hope for me? Although that would entail not only being  willing to give up on some things, but also being able to actually do so. And as Ray has taught, I have no freewill, so, ultimately what God predetermined will come to pass; I'll just choose accordingly. 

THAT'S THE IMPASS YOU HAD TO GET TO Pierdut!

Surrender is not defeat. It is the every knee shall bow in the atmosphere that is our incomprehensible God.

Defeat leaves the ego alive and well.

Surrender is FATHER, into your hands I commend my Spirit/Life/Body and soul.

You ARE entering through the narrow gate Pierdut. Now judgement, on the house of God, hurts SO bad.

Defiance does turn to submission and submission turns to surrender THEN Love washes the hurt, heals the ignorance and restores understanding that is not of the world nor can be taught by the world.

 

[mickiel]

[

I am getting a strong impression that I won't be voted the BT Mr. Congeniality this year.   

Good thing the Kingdom of God is not a democracy. 

Ray wrote an article called Why Does God Love You?

In that article, Ray wrote that God hates both sin and sinners.  Ray quoted 14 Scriptures to support that God hates sinners.  I agree with those Scriptures.  One of those Scriptures is:

If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, God's curse be upon him.  1 Cor. 16:22 Moffatt Translation

In Pierdut's first post above, he states that he is filled with hopelessness and rage and a lust for physical things that others have.  Pierdut questions if the next life (the Resurrection) exists and he states that he hopes it doesn't.

Pierdut also says that either God does not exist, or doesn't care and takes pleasure out of his suffering.

The statements made by Pierdut are not of the Spirit of God, and thus he is not my brother.

I won't tolerate such statements made by people in my presence.  I will speak against them.  That's just the way it is.
[/quote]


In my view, whatever believers opinions and beliefs about Gods Love are, they will fall short of explaining how good it really is, no matter how strong of an explination they give; those explinations, no matter how good they are, Gods Love will be far better and far more than they can explain. Conversely, in my view, no matter how a believer tries to explain God's hate, his hate will always be far less than what they try to explain and believe it is;  his hate is in no manner greater than his Love. His hate for humans, is not human hate, and I don't see how any believer in God can properly explain or understand God's hate.

God is just different; his Love is different; his hate is different; his hate may contain charactheristics of Love? It may contain elements of Mercy and Grace, I don't think we really know? Its easy to quote scripture and say God hates, but I think its harder to correctly explain that hate. How is a human going to hate someone, and yet give them life, care for them, and make provisions for them, and ultimately save them? And yet still hate them? Well that is what God is doing and will do with his hate; that's a different kind of hate, in my view. Its not a condemning hate; its not a destructive hate; its not a hate that wipes out the future of the person, or the potential of the person; or the ultimate forgiveness of the person; because God will not always hate, he will eventually forgive.

Again in my view, hate is not a natural part of God; its unatural in him. I think he had to " Bring himself to do it;" In my understanding of certain scriptures like Job 40:10 " Adorn yourself with eminence and dignity; clothe " Yourself" with honor and Majesty." This seems to me that God " Did these things to himself"; so powerful that he can actually create parts of himself! Or do things to himself. Clothe himself; which is awful close to me seeing that he created parts of himself. Conversely this is how I think God came to hate things, he had to " Bring himself to do it." Oh sure, we humans gave him plenty of reason, but I still think its something he had to " Kind of make himself do." But this again is just my opinion;in Psalm 93:1 it again says that God " Clothed and Girded HIMSELF with Strength." Increased himself; one could say" created" those parts of himself?

God hateing humans, I think is just more to it than meets our understanding. On the one end, it can be motivating to a believer to do better, who wants God to hate them; yet on another end it may spell complette doom in the mind of an unbeliever if they think God hates them, and just sap all of their fadeing hope.

I don't think hate increases in God, nor is a perminent thing in him. I personally think he has to make himself do it.

[rick]

                 Hi Pierdut
When I had first read your thread I remembered a time when I could relate to that which you were speaking of. I wanted to respond then but felt prevented from doing so at that time.

I had read the responses you had received but had not passed judgement on anyone for the things they said. I like how Craig said
               Craig wrote
(  In some cases a helping hand and "sun will come out tomorrow" replies help the most. Other times an in your face "get over yourself" response is better. Is one more right than the other? Does all get used by God? )

That is such a awesome response as it says so much however which response does one use to help another in need that is the question.

I’m a babe in Jesus so what do I know besides a couple of truths I learned here at B.T. If I were to give you advice it would simply be to not read but study the lake of fire series.

My prayers are with you and I certainly hope you find understanding in how God is dealing with you or at least acceptance in His dealing with you.   

Love and peace to ALL

[Pierdut]

For JFK, I just want to say; judge and condemn and even hate me. But just remember; with what judgment you judge you will be judged, and with what measure you use it will be measured onto you. I created this thread while in deep distress and some saw it as an opportunity to kick a man while he is down. That was low down and dirty, and not what I expected from 'God's elect.' I guess the lesson to be learned is; never go to man for help, for you will just get ridiculed. 

While I did also get some good replies, I should have not created this thread - I just embarrassed myself by doing so. And that's the last thing I needed. 

[Pierdut]

As for the title; I didn't mean 'Hell' as in the Christian 'Hell' with fire and brimstone - just as a very awful place which no man wants to be. I meant it as a figure of speech.

[cheekie3]

Peirdut -

I just wanted to share with you my own daily and ongoing thoughts:

1. Before we can fully eat the Fruit of the Tree of Life, we must fully eat the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil - by our Life's experiences (one Tree with two opposing Fruit).

2. I still do not fully understand the Responsibility of Our Heavenly Father (as He is Sovereign over All) in the context of our own individual Accountability's.

3. I know that all our steps, decisions, emotions, sufferings and lives are prepared by Our Heavenly Father; and there is nothing anyone of us can prevent His Will and Intention.

4. I check my innermost motives in every situation to ascertain if I am ruled by His Holy Spirit or by the worldly Pride of Life, Lust of the Eyes or the Lust of the Flesh.

5. Daily, I Repent of my sins (known and unknown); as well as those that are close to me in my life (just in case they sinned) - and I forgive those who persecute me and mine - and Bless them and not curse them.

6. As a very wise mature Lady often tells me "Life is Hard"; and often "Life is Very, Very, Hard - almost to the point of it being unbearable" - until your situation changes for the better, or the issue is resolved.

7. Our sufferings produce the required Fruit of Our Heavenly Father's Holy Spirit in us, and in those who hurt and persecute us (in due course).

8. I am comforted in the knowledge that the principle thing is Wisdom; and Our Saviour and Father are Wise -m and in total control of all at all times.

9. Above all else, Our Saviour and Our Heavenly Father are LOVE - at all times.

George.
 

[Ricky]

John nailed it bigtime, Me dont have to say anything now. Going back to bed. Peirdut, Smile Jesus loves you,  You cant change that. Study and Wait. God will then come to you, He already has because you are here, He will come to you with more, a little at a time.  Belief, is a wise wager, if you Gain, you Gain all, if you lose, you lose,  nothing.    Bless you all.   Ricky

[longhorn]

Really can't believe this thread has now reached 3 pages. With the wealth of info Ray has left us and this is the most responded to post.  For the love of everything holy move on...  Pierdut....sorry for your troubles but that is exactly what we a promised...... If I were you, I'd have a couple of cold ones and get over it. Really I would.

Longhorn