Politics ?voting

[walt123]

Hello all

This Is how I feel about voting,this first half part scene from rambo.

http://youtu.be/N_F3UbTjPFE

Walt.

Ps. last part of scene is what we should aim for, just my thoughts.

[mickiel]

I personally like voting when I feel moved to; and I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

[Doug]

I am confused, does not God determine our leaders? How can our vote change anything God has already determined?

[mickiel]

I am confused, does not God determine our leaders? How can our vote change anything God has already determined?

I don't think God hand picks all of our leaders, perhaps far less of them than we think; I don't think he even cares about most of the worlds leaders. I think he picks just those he has a will to deal with for his particular reasons. I don't think God looks to determine every little thing in government, or in the world. I think he couldcareless about most of the affiars of men, they are meaningless to him. Thats what Isaiah said about him. It is our human right to vote on things which concern us as humans; such as local issues; racial issues, rights issues, and zoning issues. Family issues and neighborhood issues; all kinds of issues that may concern you. Why would God be mad at me for voting for my son to have rights to go to school where I want him to go? Am I being " Unspiritual" if I choose to vote for jails not to be built in my neighborhood? Am I an unbeliever if I vote for blacks and minoritys to have more rights in my state? Will I be frowned on - on this website if I vote to have a new road built on my street?

Wow!

[rick]

                                                       Hi Mickiel



"...for He has appointed a time for every matter, and for every work..." (The New Revised Standard Version).
"For He has set a season for every event and for every deed..." (The Concordant Literal Old Testament).
There is no wasted motion in God's creation, purpose and plan. Everything has an appointed time, and everything includes: "every purpose, every work, every matter, every event, and every deed."


I believe God cares about everything and chooses every leader in every nation on planet earth. Everything is predestined even this post.


Love and peace to all.

[mickiel]

                                                       Hi Mickiel



"...for He has appointed a time for every matter, and for every work..." (The New Revised Standard Version).
"For He has set a season for every event and for every deed..." (The Concordant Literal Old Testament).
There is no wasted motion in God's creation, purpose and plan. Everything has an appointed time, and everything includes: "every purpose, every work, every matter, every event, and every deed."


I believe God cares about everything and chooses every leader in every nation on planet earth. Everything is predestined even this post.


Love and peace to all.

Greetings,

I view it differently, I don't think God cares about everything; some things I think he just does not care about. Lets just use you as an example; do you think God cares about what kind of computer you have? Do you think he cares what kind of deodorant you wear? Does he care about what kind of food you like? Does he care about how many nightclubs are in your city? Does he care what the Mayor of your town drives, and what kind of gas he puts in his car? Does he care about the leaders in every single tribe in Africa and Asia and the Forrest regions? Does he care who is leading China and why would he? Why should God concern himself with every little detail in Americas government? Why? Why should God care about picking every single Senator and every single Governor- every single year? How would " Not picking them" stop him from getting his way? Explain to me why God has to manipulate every single thing in reality? Why??

[Kat]

Explain to me why God has to manipulate every single thing in reality? Why??

Because He is sovereign! No human being has free will, God is the ultimate cause of all things. To say He does not care about anything in the creation is denying He is the supreme over this creation. This is His plan and this creation is going exactly as He so desires, down to the most minute detail.

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning,
       And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
       Saying, "My counsel shall stand,
       And I will do all My pleasure,'

Eph 1:11  In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Php 2:13  for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Pro 16:9  A man's heart plans his way,
       But the LORD directs his steps.

Pro 20:24  A man's steps are of the LORD;
       How then can a man understand his own way?

Jer 10:23  O LORD, I know the way of man is not in himself;
       It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.

Amo 4:13  For behold,
       He who forms mountains,
       And creates the wind,
       Who declares to man what his thought is,
       And makes the morning darkness,
       Who treads the high places of the earth--
       The LORD God of hosts is His name.

Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things." (CLV)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

Yes, God determines who the leaders of nations will be.  And He does through them what He wills.  He raises up kingdoms and brings them down, and He does it at the international, national, organizational, and even the personal level.  He uses them for His purpose and when he is finished with them, He judges them.  I'll argue again that it is not even in the slimmest realm of possibility that carnal-minded men and women can be disciples of Jesus Christ--certainly not consistently.  This may be even MORE true in a democracy (or representative republic) because it takes masses of carnal-minded men and women to "give" them power, and take it away.

Whether or not it is "carnal-minded" to vote, I'll leave to your own conscience and understanding, but it is carnal-minded to think that you or I have either the wisdom or ability to determine or thwart the Will of God. 

Because God is in control does NOT mean that all of his "choices" in these matters are GOOD.  Much of the world (most of it, maybe) is a backdrop of Evil.  How are disciples of Christ supposed to return GOOD for EVIL if Evil doesn't exist (as just one example)?  Decent people yearn for GOOD, and I understand that.  Not only has God put the "kings" in place, but He has put the people in place as well.  Some prosper, and some suffer as time and history play out.  The maturing in Christ LEARN.  Their time isn't this age, but the next.  This age is a cauldron of good intentions, evil intentions, good results and evil results and unintended good and evil results as well, because people are beasts and lack the true wisdom of God.  All of them--including you and me.

Anyway, do what you want.  You're going to anyway.  And your work will be judged as well, whether good or bad.         

[mickiel]

Well again I am placed in a situation where I see things differently, and I apologise for that, meaning no disrespect. There are two suggestions that look to suggest that God cares about everything and must be involved in everything, and that we should not vote. In Isaiah 40: 15, " Behold, the nations are like a drop from a bucket, and are regarded as a speck of dust on the scales." Vs. 17, " All the nations are as nothing before him,  they are regarded " By Him", as less than nothing and meaningless." Why should God care about everything nations do, if he regards them as less than nothing and meaningless? He does not care about everything that nations do. It does not mean anything to him. If I regard something as " Less than nothing", why would I try to control the less than nothing? God is not a control freak; he does according to his will, and quite frankly, he simply is not interested in everything that nations do. Daniel 4:35 " ALL the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing." There exist a side of God that takes no concern whatsoever what the earth is doing. And of course he is interested in some things. What those things are, none of us actually know. We cannot correctly say what he does not care about, nor can we correctly say that he cares about everything, and that be accurate.

In Isaiah 43:25, " I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions " For my own sake." " For my own sake", means " Interest". God is interested in doing that, forgiveness interest him. He does it for his own reasons. He is not interested in every thing humans do. He is saying here that he, for his own interest, will forgive and not even remember our sins; if he is not going to even remember them, then he does not care about them. Which may shock some. Why care about something that your going to wipe from your memory? That makes no sense.

Concerning voting and the suggestion that we should not; In Mark 12:17 " Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. Right there Jesus taught that we should pay taxes, that we can be involved in government. He kept it on an equal plane in comparison; render to Caesar ( or government) and render to God; this means we can be committed to both, or be involved with both; we do not have to section ourselves off from Caesar or from government. Why should we " Render to Caesar", or government, and not be involved in picking or electing who will be Caesar, or president? What kind of sense does that make? Render is " Giving to, paying attention; its a commitment." Jesus is teaching that we can pay attention to government, we can give to government or be involved; we can vote if we want to. Jesus did not teach us not to vote. That is not in scripture. I don't know where we got that from. And let me apologise again for seeing this differently, I mean no discord. Jesus taught this plain and clear, he did not try to persuade his people to not be involved in government.

[onelovedread]

If you want to vote, wy don't you just go and do so?
Does it serve any purpose to engage in a meaningless back and forth when you already have your strong views.
Ultimately, it's ALL of God.

[Kat]

You are saying that God got all this creation started down here in this world and then it was just 'hands off' - not interested. That indicates that you believe that man has free will and is determining how things in this world will go, because God could not care less. What kind of God do you think we have that would create such a wicked world then not care about the turmoil and suffering that is going on? He is very much a caring God! You disrespect our God over and over by your comments towards Him. To say He does not care what happens in this world, is like saying He does not love this world. He demonstrated His immense loving care (more than humans can even understand) for every person that will ever live in that He died for all of us.

Rom 5:8  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

All I can think is you have mistaken all this suffering and wickedness as not caring, but if you would read some of what in the BT site you would know that this is all temporary and actually serves a good purpose. All this is according to His plan, not just what is happening at random. He is totally in control, sovereign, nothing happens independent of Him.

Col 1:17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Here is a short email that helps explain the purpose for things to be as they are at this time.

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm -------------------------

God is SPIRIT. God is interested ONLY in spiritual things. All this physical creation is not something that God takes great pleasure in--it is but a means to an end. Well, what does He want then? He wants CHILDREN! SPIRITUAL Sons and Daughters in HIS VERY IMAGE!

But, how does He get them? Create them? Yes, CREATE them. But how does He create them. Instantly? No. To be in the IMAGE of God means that we will have the very same CHARACTER AND LOVE of God. Character and Love cannot be created instantly; it can only be developed over a period of time under severe pressure and duress.  And so God creates severe pressure and duress, which produces GODLY CHARACTER.  Imagine creating "patience," INSTANTLY?  Why the very thought is self-contradicting. Patience by its very nature means that something must be WAITED FOR even though it is desired NOW.

God knows what He is doing. Now then, there is a second part to all this. We ourselves would never ever really appreciate the qualities of character, virtue, and love, that we will possess if we did not have to "sweat blood" to get them. There is no virtue that you can name that is not the result of overcoming some form of evil.  And so this physical, human, temporal existence is as beneficial for US, and it is to GOD.
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Psa 66:7  He rules by His power forever;
       His eyes observe the nations;
       Do not let the rebellious exalt themselves.Selah

When He said "all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing," that is in comparison to His greatest and glory and certainly did not mean they were nothing to Him.


To vote is to believe you have some control over what will happen - free will, and is also participating in worldly affairs. As believers we have to pick who we will serve.

James 4:4  Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

Mat 6:24  "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Well again I am placed in a situation where I see things differently, and I apologise for that, meaning no disrespect. There are two suggestions that look to suggest that God cares about everything and must be involved in everything, and that we should not vote. In Isaiah 40: 15, " Behold, the nations are like a drop from a bucket, and are regarded as a speck of dust on the scales." Vs. 17, " All the nations are as nothing before him,  they are regarded " By Him", as less than nothing and meaningless." Why should God care about everything nations do, if he regards them as less than nothing and meaningless? He does not care about everything that nations do. It does not mean anything to him. If I regard something as " Less than nothing", why would I try to control the less than nothing? God is not a control freak; he does according to his will, and quite frankly, he simply is not interested in everything that nations do. Daniel 4:35 " ALL the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing." There exist a side of God that takes no concern whatsoever what the earth is doing. And of course he is interested in some things. What those things are, none of us actually know. We cannot correctly say what he does not care about, nor can we correctly say that he cares about everything, and that be accurate.

In Isaiah 43:25, " I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions " For my own sake." " For my own sake", means " Interest". God is interested in doing that, forgiveness interest him. He does it for his own reasons. He is not interested in every thing humans do. He is saying here that he, for his own interest, will forgive and not even remember our sins; if he is not going to even remember them, then he does not care about them. Which may shock some. Why care about something that your going to wipe from your memory? That makes no sense.

Concerning voting and the suggestion that we should not; In Mark 12:17 " Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. Right there Jesus taught that we should pay taxes, that we can be involved in government. He kept it on an equal plane in comparison; render to Caesar ( or government) and render to God; this means we can be committed to both, or be involved with both; we do not have to section ourselves off from Caesar or from government. Why should we " Render to Caesar", or government, and not be involved in picking or electing who will be Caesar, or president? What kind of sense does that make? Render is " Giving to, paying attention; its a commitment." Jesus is teaching that we can pay attention to government, we can give to government or be involved; we can vote if we want to. Jesus did not teach us not to vote. That is not in scripture. I don't know where we got that from. And let me apologise again for seeing this differently, I mean no discord. Jesus taught this plain and clear, he did not try to persuade his people to not be involved in government.

You clearly have little interest in what God says on this matter and would rather keep your own doctrine, despite the scriptures that emphatically declare you a liar.

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;

Also, God does care about the governments of the world and who rules them, HE APPOINTS THEM:

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power BUT OF GOD: THE POWERS THAT BE ARE ORDAINED OF GOD"  (Rom. 13:1).

Is that a high enough authority for you mickiel? GOD?

What did Jesus say concerning Ponteious pilot, who was a governing power at the time?

"Then said Pilate unto Him, speak you not unto me? Know you not that I have power to crucify you, and have power to release you? Jesus answered, You could have no power at all against me except it was given you from above; therefore he that delivered Me unto you has the greater power"  (John 19:10-11).

As Ray has said and this speaks directly to YOU mickiel.
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"GOD IS A STICKLER FOR DETAILS

God doesn't only know the big things, like when you were to be born and when you are to die, but God know everything in between our birth and death.

Just because God counts islands and whole nations as tiny drops or particles of dust, does not mean that He is not also aware of droplets of water and particles of dust (Isa. 40:15). Jesus said: "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matt. 10:30).

Do you realize what that statement means? If your hairs are all numbered, then God must know and take note every time ONE FALLS OUT, for the number then changes.

    "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? And one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father?" (Matt. 10:29).

Surely from these we can understand and believe that God truly does rule over His creation down to the very smallest of things. People often state that God is just not interested in such small things of life. Not true. God is more than just aware of all things, but rather God has created this world and all that in it is, for a grand purpose. No detail is too small in the ultimate working out of that purpose.

Do scientists send men to the moon without first working out the minutest of details regarding the rockets and landing craft? Is anything too small to consider when operating on the human brain or heart? Just remember that God created the entire universe out of things too small to even been seen. God is not limited to "reading us like a book." Oh no, it is God who wrote our book!"

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html
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Sorry Mickiel, but you're just plain WRONG.

ONCE:

    "...to the intent that the living may know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomsoever He will..." (Dan. 4:17).

A SECOND:

    "...and seven times shall pass over you, till you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomsoever He will" (Ver. 25).

A THIRD:

    "till you shall have known that the heavens do rule..." (Verse 26).

A FOURTH:

    "...seven times shall pass over you until you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives sit to whomsoever He will" (Ver. 32).

A FIFTH:

    "...and I blessed the Most High and I praised and honored Him...and He does according to HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth and NONE can stay His hand..." (Ver. 34-35).

A SIXTH:

    "...And he was driven from the sons of men, and his heart was made like the beasts... till he knew that the Most High God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that He appoints over it whomsoever He will" (Dan. 5:21).

Go ahead Mickiel, tell God He doesn't appoint the kings of these kingdoms. Tell Him He doesn't work ALL THINGS (including kings) after the council of His own will. TELL HIM He CAN'T. TELL HIM HE WON'T. TELL HIM HE DOESN'T CARE! CALL HIM A LIAR!!  Hold on to your man made doctrines for all the good it will do you.

The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers [rillets—small brooks] of water:  He turns [directs] it whithersoever he will [desires]" (Prov. 21:1).

In Christ,
Alex

[mickiel]

Just because God is aware of the details of the human body, or the number of hairs that are on your head, does not mean he sits up there and counts each one that falls off; it just means he is able to take care of you; if he takes care of birds. It means humans are more important to him than birds, it does not mean he is a stickler for details. What good does it do anything for God to know how many hairs are on your head? It just means God can be uniquely conscious of a person, " if' he wants to. But God is not a control freak, and he does not want his people to be control freaks either, telling people they can't vote. What's next, telling me I can't wear purple clothes? Trying to control who I talk to about God? Telling me I can't go swimming and giving me some kind of spiritual reason I can't swim? I don't care how many names I am called here, nobody can tell me I can't vote, and try and give me impression that its biblical, when it is not. Trying to make things spiritual, that have nothing to do with spirituality. If I am to incline my heart to Gods ways, then simply show me in scripture where God or Christ has commanded that I do not vote. I know what you believers are saying, but show me where God said it. Show me where God said do not witness about him? Show these things to me! Then, show me where I have to do what a group of believers are saying to do. God's precepts revive me, not the precepts of a group.

I know how to walk in the world of men and not be a part of their religious ways; voting has nothing to do with religion. We have a right to vote, and no group of believers can take that right away. When God helps a person, no group can disgrace that person. If I disagree with something, that does not make me some kind of infidel; I am not a liar if I don't see something exactly as you do! I believe what most of you believe, but I understand what I understand; now if you don't like that understanding; what? Cut my head off? Ban me? Call me names? Is all that of God? Good grief.

There are many things God cares about, and many things that he doesn't. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that statement.

[Kat]

mickiel, you are not hearing/understanding anything that is being said, you are obviously not like minded with us here. This discussion has become pointless.