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[onelovedread]

Seems like it's a necessary ingredient for His plan   

Excerpt from 'The Father's Will' 2006 Conference (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html):

"God doesn’t call everybody to be one of His favorite chosen, elect, except from the church.  So we don’t want to poo poo the church too bad, because that’s where He gets the elect from.  I have never heard or known of an atheist converting and becoming one of God’s elect.  They always go into the church first, to be corrupted by the church and then they’re shown the truth and they come out."

Say What?

[dodrill]

For if he who comes to you would preach another Yeshua to you, whom we have not preached to you, or you should receive another spirit which you have not received, or another gospel which you have not received, you may well be persuaded. 2 Corinthians 11:4

even in different translations - persuaded has strong implications (coerce, influence, sway, prompt, inveigle, entice, tempt, lure, cajole)
Speaking of the church - which Christ do they preach?

[cjwood]

the churches of the world teach the poor christ who wants to save everyone but can't because, well, not everybody will choose to believe in him.  but, the "christians" get in.  they get to go to heaven because they go to church.  but thank God the Father/Jehovah/Jesus Christ!  we have been graced to see the True Christ, the Saviour of the entire world.  all that have lived.  THAT is the Christ we worship.   

claudia

[Deborah-Leigh]

Ray taught that all the religions preach Hell.

All the followers of all religions, will learn that Hell is a Hoax.

We know who the Harlot is. The false prophet is.....(not allowed to teach...) ~

[onelovedread]

And yet... those were Ray's words. 
Are you all saying that he was mistaken when he uttered them in the 2006 conference?

[Dave in Tenn]

Many are called.  Few are chosen.  THE church, and His Church.

What do you think he's saying, John? 

[Rhys 🕊]

What is really bad when good will come from it. It's just a necessary evil for an appointed amount of time. I had my time there and don't want to go back. If you have come out then you have the hope of being one of His elect which only He knows. I see no problem with what Ray said here

Rhys

[cjwood]

i believe ray's words were saying that out of the physical church Jesus Christ is building His Church.  His Body of true believers.  but yes johnchris, i see it as him saying in essence that we have to be in the church to come out of it.

claudia

[arion]

One has to be in the church [little c] in order to come out of it to be in what Christ calls My Church [big C].  I don't see a contradiction personally.

[onelovedread]

I agree with all points made. Is Ray saying that although we rightfully have left the  false 'church' it was part of the process?
We started in that system where we had some type of erroneous exposure but at least 'met' God before He led us to come out of her and join His Church.
To that extent it was a "necessary evil" 

[se7en]

Yes JohnChris, you got it! That is exactly what the Word is saying.

This is all a process.. The christian orthodox church is a necessary evil. If it wasn't for them, we would have nothing to contrast or come out of. First the fleshy, then the spiritual. Babylon and all her sister cities (other false religions) are there to provide us a set of doctrines to come out of.

[dodrill]

Is personal experience the only way to learn in life?
What about learning from example
My small taste and exposure to religion knocked me flat
Oh yes I was a backslider - but in my reality - I didn't want to be like them 

[Kat]

The church is our 'first love' or when we come to know that there is a God. They do not have the knowledge of the truth of how to serve and obey God, so we soon lose sight of that first love. But it is necessary to go into the church so we truly understand what it is about, we are deceived by it just like they all are, so we should be able to sympathize with them better.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[se7en]

hayley,

Are you talking about learning how to shoot a gun vs. actually going out and shooting one?  using a gun as an example, it could be anything.

[dodrill]

My parents were my first experience of love and an example of what Godly love is - not the church - I hear what you are saying - but the church system has morphed into a brand of their own spirituality and are lawless
There was a time when scripture had no guess work - what was written was law and spiritual - the temple was a place of worship, learning and government
So what is the difference to being called out of the church and the great falling away? People leave because their is no truth in them and the church certainly does not fulfill the same vocation they did in the past - so how can this modern day institution be a sanctuary of learning about God and Law?
Hardly a love story - we were just duped to think God would be found there - but He is everywhere
Reminds me of the parable of the wedding feast - the ones that were invited were too busy to attend - so the servants went to the highways and byways inviting all
To learn from example is to not make the same mistakes other people make - something like the 100 monkey syndrome - over a period of time we learn from others mistakes - so yes - knowing what the dangers and pitfalls are we can avoid them

[cjwood]

hi hayley.  i have never heard of the "100 monkey syndrome".   

what is that about?

claudia

[cjwood]

never mind hayley.  i just googled it and got quite the education.  interesting phenomenon.

claudia

p.s.  maybe that's where the phrase "monkey see, monkey do" came from.   

[Kat]

Here is a little refresher on "first love."

http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html -----------

ALL FALL AWAY

I showed numerous times that all: leave their first love, forsake Jesus, look back, blaspheme, build a spiritual house upon the sand, etc.

It is when John is standing on the sand of the sea that he first sees the wild beast come up out of the sea. Now the questions become: "WHEN did John stand upon the sand in HIS life? WHEN do we stand upon the sand in OUR lives?

Answer: When the spiritual house that we all build falls down with a ‘GREAT FALL.’ When (notice I did not say, ‘IF’)…when our spiritual house built upon the spiritual sand falls, WE ARE LEFT STANDING ON THE SAND OF THE SEA. We are only INCHES above the very sea itself—the masses and multitudes of humanity who do not have any knowledge of God AT ALL. It doesn’t mean that we have no knowledge of God at all at this quandary in our spiritual lives; it just means that we are no closer to God than all the humanity in the sea. Hence, we are not IN the sea, but rather standing on the SAND of the sea where out spiritual house just FELL!

And since God is not only calling some of us but choosing us also, God begins to teach us anew. And the first thing He begins to show us is the WILD BEAST coming up out of the sea that is the CAUSE of our being overcome and the CAUSE of our spiritual house falling! This wild beast will be reckoned with by all humanity sooner or later.
v

I showed you in a previous installment that the very first thing that Jesus pointed out as a spiritual flaw in the first of the Seven Churches, was that they "LEFT their first love."

This is referred to in fundamental circles as "backsliding." But, supposedly, only a few ever "backslide." Most, it is assumed, just keep growing and growing from grace to grace until they die a happy death of old age.

The Seven [COMPLETE] Churches of God represent the WHOLE CHURCH OF GOD in all generations. And so, what is it that God says those who are ALREADY IN THE CHURCH have to do if they are to overcome and be in the Kingdom of God? Answer:

"Remember therefore from whence you are FALLEN, and REPENT…" (Rev. 2:5).

Repent of WHAT? Repent of "…leaving your FIRST LOVE."

But you say, "I have never left my first love." Well then, this Scripture isn’t speaking to you. But everyone who does make it into the Kingdom, does leave his first love. There are those, however, who have left their first love, AND DON’T EVEN KNOW IT! Repenting will come especially hard for them, as they see nothing to repent of.

Whenever someone is called of God and he repents, is baptized, confirmed, initiated, or whatever, it is into a church. And sooner or later that particular church will bring you to the point where you will leave your first love for God and turn to the church and its religion as the idol of your heart. God calls His people OUT of the Babylonish System of Religion which has a strangle hold on ‘The Church.’

"Mystery Babylon the Great" is a CHURCH! But it is also A SPIRITUAL WHORE:

"For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to JERUSALEM which now is, and is in bondage with HER CHILDREN. But Jerusalem which is ABOVE is free, which is the MOTHER OF US ALL" (Gal. 4:25-26).

Jerusalem above is our MOTHER. Jerusalem below is also a MOTHER with children in bondage.
-------------------------------------------------------------

There is so much more in this article on this subject.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[dodrill]

Thanks Kat -  I do receive understand and agree with - especially this "Jesus pointed out as a spiritual flaw in the first of the Seven Churches, was that they "LEFT their first love."
The church represents the world - and like the prodigal son - I left my father's house (my first love) to seek my fame and fortune in the world - taking my inheritance early and living it up, learning the ways of men (false church teachings) and I do see the beast in me - and repent - so I can go back to my father's house - (my first love) and he receives me
I guess its the word 'church' that throws me - because I never learned the love of God at the institute of church (one of those seven Jesus spoke about). But there was a time that we were once in our father's house literally, physically and spiritually - when we did not assign the nature to God that the church teaches - before we came into being (before being born  physically). And when we do hear the truth - that is what our spirits witness with - this memory of God and His true nature. Well that is what I think Same truth just processed in the mind of hayley
so is the church / world / flesh experience - good or bad - why its both - sometimes we just spend more time outside the building

Ray also said the Pharisees never taught a doctrine as evil as the christian church - can they really be likened to the churches of old?
They are a new breed - the sons of perdition. Webster definition of PERDITION:  the state of being in hell forever as punishment after death.
Not all people have been fed that lie - so is it still necessary to first be in this modern church and then called out? - I don't think so

[Kat]

Actually hayhey, I do think this applies to all the churches down through the ages. The church represents the false concept that they know the truth/God, and actually blasphemy His name. The world as a whole does not even try to imply that they know God... they may say they believe in God, but that is as far as it goes. The church is guilty of greater injustice by teach terrible falsehoods about God, claiming it is the truth, both at this time and those that Jesus Christ condemned.

Luke 12:47  And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
v. 48  But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Mat 23:13  "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

mercy, peace and love
Kat