bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Forum related how to's?  Post your questions to the membership.


.

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Where is Jesus came from?  (Read 14736 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

santgem

  • Guest
Where is Jesus came from?
« on: October 31, 2013, 08:26:04 AM »

We know very well that Jesus came out from God.

Is Jesus created or birthed by the Father and what is the difference between the two?
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Where is Jesus came from?
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2013, 11:37:59 AM »

John 16:27  for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.
v. 28  I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father." (NKJV)

John 16:27 for the Father Himself is fond of you, seeing that you are fond of Me, and have believed that I came out from God."
v. 28 I came out from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I am leaving the world and am going to the Father." (CLV)

John 16:28 I came forth out of the Father, and have come into the world,—Again, I leave the world, and go, unto the Father.
v. 29 His disciples say—See! now, openly, art thou speaking, and, not a single similitude, art thou using: (Rotherham)

John 8:42  Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. (NKJV)

John 8:42 Jesus, then, said to them, "If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For out of God I came forth and am arriving. For neither have I come of Myself, but He commissions Me." (CLV)

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them—If, God, had been your father, ye had been loving me, for, I, from God, came forth, and am here; for, not even of myself, have I come, but, he, sent me forth. (Rotherham)

Here is an interesting Scripture.

Rev 3:14  "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
    "These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: (NKJV)

Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:" (CLV)

Rev 3:14 And, unto the messenger of the assembly, in Laodicea, write:—These things, saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness the beginning of the creation of God: (Rotherham)

And one more Scripture that does indicate that the Son had a start, was First.

Rev 2:8  "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,
    "These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: (NKJV)

Rev 2:8 And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Smyrna write: `Now, this He is saying Who is the First and the Last, Who became dead, and lives:" (CLV)

Rev 2:8 And, unto the messenger of the assembly, in Smyrna, write:—These things, saith the first and the last, who became dead, and lived: (Rotherham)

Here is a place in the LOF that Ray mentioned this.

http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html ----------------

WHO IS ANTIPAS?

"I know your works and where you DWELL, even where SATAN’S SEAT [throne] is: and you hold fast My name, and have not denied My faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr [Gk: ‘witness’], who was slain among you, WHERE SATAN DWELLS" (Rev. 2:13).

But how do we know that this is Jerusalem, and not the literal city of Pergamos to whom this message is addressed?

Because God gives us the same proof as when He tells us that,

"their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, WHERE also our Lord was crucified" (Re. 11:08).

And "where" was that? Jerusalem.

Where ever "Antipas" was martyred, is where Satan dwells and has his throne. But just who is Antipas? "Antipas" is not translated. It is the same word in the Greek Manuscripts. It is a compound word: "antee" and "pas." Antee carries the meaning of being ‘in place of another,’ and pas is from pater meaning ‘father.’ And so Antipas is speaking of one who is here in the place of his father. Who might that be?

"I came forth FROM the Father…" (John 16:28).

"Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He was come FROM God, and went to God" (John 13:3).

"But now I go My way to Him that SENT ME..." (John 16;5).

"No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is IN THE BOSOM of the Father, he has declared [unfolded or revealed] Him" (John 1:18).

"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I PROCEEDED FORTH AND CAME FROM God; neither came I of Myself, but He sent Me" (John 8:42).

"God… has in these last days SPOKEN UNTO US BY HIS SON…" (Heb. 1-1-2).

It is absolutely Scripturally clear that it is Jesus Christ who came "in the place of" His Father to reveal His Father to us. Jesus Christ is the Antipas.

The phrase "faithful martyr" is a proper translation, however the word translated "martyr" is from the Greek martus and is translated martyr only three times, but is translated "witness" twenty-nine times, for that is what its meaning is—a witness.

So Antipas, has come in the place of the Father. And Antipas is God’s faithful witness. And Who does the Scripture tell us is the "faithful witness" of God? Answer:

"And from JESUS CHRIST, Who IS THE FAITHFUL WITNESS…" (Rev. 1:5).

And Antipas, Jesus Christ, was martyred IN JERUSALEM. Satan’s throne and dwelling place is in JERUSALEM!
-------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 08:36:20 PM by Kat »
Logged

Dave in Tenn

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4311
    • FaceBook David Sanderson
Re: Where is Jesus came from?
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2013, 08:10:48 PM »

From the Nashville '08 conference:

There are some unique things about the universe. We learn in Hebrews that God made everything that is was made from that which does not appear. In other words that’s saying it’s made of things that you can’t see, it’s invisible things. But it was made of something, it wasn’t made of nothing. I find Christian scientists and fundamentalist Christians alike insisting that this one site on the Internet and the very name of it, has to do with creation out of nothing. No, God did not create it out of nothing. Hebrews said it was created out of things that are not seen, invisible. 

Now God is spirit and it says plainly in the new testament God is invisible. Now, can we then conclude that the universe came out of God? Well yes. Notice Romans 11, it plainly says so and we don’t need to speculate about this, this is clear. Well it may not be as clear in the King James, but it’s clear in all other Scriptures whether you go to Concordant, the American Standard Version, Rotherham, the Diaglott, they all say the same thing.

Rom 11:36  For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen. (KJV)

It says, “Of Him and through Him.” The Greek is for out of Him. For out of Him and through Him and for Him. It says to Him, but it should be for him. It should be out, through and for… not of, through and to. “For out of Him, and through Him and for Him is all.” Not are all things. “…Is all. To Him be glory for the eon, Amen.” So, what is out of Him? ALL is out of Him.

Now turn to John 17:8. In Revelation 3:14 we learn that Jesus Christ is “the beginning of the creation of God.”

John 17:8  For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.

Jesus said “I came out from Thee.” Where did Jesus come from? Did He come out of the Virgin Mary, is that where Jesus really came from? No. I mean I know that people believe that is where Jesus came from, out of the Virgin Mary. He did, but He was before that. Jesus plainly says “I came out from Thee,” the Father. He came out of the Father and He was before He became the Messiah. He was sent to be the Messiah from back in the Old Testament times.

It plainly says He was conceived of or by the Holy Spirit of God the Father. We’re in John 17:8, back up a couple verses and Christ says,

Joh 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.

He was glorified in His Father before there was a world, it says so. In Philippians it said He was made.

Php 2:7  But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

It means emptied. He emptied Himself of His divinity and became in the form of man. That isn’t where He came from, He didn’t originate in a human baby. He emptied Himself into a little baby to become in the form of a man.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Logged
Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

mickiel

  • Guest
Re: Where is Jesus came from?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2013, 03:17:52 PM »

We know very well that Jesus came out from God.

Is Jesus created or birthed by the Father and what is the difference between the two?

I think he was " Birthed" by the Father, when he said that he " Proceeded forth and came from God", that sounds like a birth to me. In John 5:26 Jesus said " For just as the Father has life in himself, even so he GAVE to the Son to have life in himself." If God had to give that to Jesus, it means he did not always have it. In John 6:57 Jesus again states that " He lives because of the Father." Which I think means he did not always live. He came out of God, out from inside of him, which means that whatever God's Spirit substance is, then Jesus is of that same substance, and we can safely assume that substance, whatever it is, its eternal. And the Father gave him self substaining eternal life. Jesus is called the first born, and humanity is destined to be born again. I often wonder just what a Spirit is?
Logged

microlink

  • Guest
Re: Where is Jesus came from?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2013, 04:35:20 PM »

Thanks mickiel.
I have not thought of this scripture in that way.
Joh 5:26  For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
The Father GAVE Him life.
Cool.
Logged

mickiel

  • Guest
Re: Where is Jesus came from?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2013, 08:40:42 PM »

Thanks mickiel.
I have not thought of this scripture in that way.
Joh 5:26  For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
The Father GAVE Him life.
Cool.

Well your welcome. There are scriptures that show Jesus is not like God, in having no beginning, that is one of them. They are different in that area. Jesus beginning was in God, and God brought him out and gave him eternity; I think birthed him. Some kind of birth, which is another reason God is refered to as " Father." Jesus calls him his Father because he birthed him. I used to look at it and think, ( in speculation), that since God is eternal, and brought Jesus out of himself, then in one sense, and only that sense, one can say Jesus is eternal; he is " Made up of eternity", or can I say " Constructed by and with eternal parts or substance", or birthed in an eternal soup ? I just don't know how to say it correctly. But he was not created; he was " In" God, and now is " Out" of him, so birth is the best way we humans can now hope to understand it.

But Jesus was " Before all other things", because he actually created all things, under God's direction I am sure. I personally believe that Jesus is the reason we humans even exist. The Father was so pleased with how Jesus turned out, that made him want more children, and his great awesome mind just became pregnant with humanity, and I like that scripture that points out he will not loose any of his children; or abort them. And through such scriptures we can reinforce universal salvation, if we look at humans as the very offspring of God. And that blows my mind at times; to even have the nerve to think of ourselves as the generate of God.
Logged

santgem

  • Guest
Re: Where is Jesus came from?
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2013, 03:07:30 AM »

There are Scriptures that had clearly said Jesus is created and Scriptures had said Jesus is birthed.....

In my  opinion at this moment  Jesus is birthed....

I am not good in english but i think created and birthed are different words and scenarios...

but would like to see opinion of others.....
Logged

AwesomeSavior

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 388
Re: Where is Jesus came from?
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2013, 09:39:38 AM »

I had an interesting thought come to me last night on this subject, and I'll pass it along to everyone to get their take on it. When Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness, Satan told Him, "If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" (Matthew 4:4). If we are comparing spiritual with spiritual… we know that Jesus is called the Word (John 1:1), and that he proceedeth forth from the Father (John 16:27-28). Thus, could it be possible that Jesus was spoken, or "breathed", into existence by the Father?
Logged

santgem

  • Guest
Re: Where is Jesus came from?
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2013, 10:45:00 AM »

from Nashville conference 2008

 
Where Did God Get Knowledge ?

The Principal Thing

I said that Onkelos translated Genesis 1:1 not “In the beginning,” but “In wisdom.”  “In wisdom God created the heaven and the earth.” I couldn’t understand that, so I looked it up in Strong’s and I got all the words for wisdom and I looked them up and it didn’t make sense. But then I did find Scriptures in the Psalms and so on, that said “In wisdom God created the heaven and the earth.” It’s not Genesis 1:1, but it’s the same, “In wisdom God created the heavens and the earth and there are several of them. But is that the way Genesis 1:1 could be translated? Well apparently so. When you look and Strong’s definition there is one word at the end of the definition.

“In the beginning” H7225  rê'shîyth
The first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.

He says firstfruit, beginning and then at the end it says the “principal thing.” The principal thing, what is that? The principal thing…  and Onkelos translates “In wisdom God created the heavens and the earth.” I just couldn’t get it and finally it hit me. Some place the Bible must tell us what the “principal thing” is.

Proverbs 4:7  Wisdom is the principal thing;


                                         WISDOM

There it is. “Wisdom is the principal thing.” Now go over to chapter 8, it talks about wisdom personified.

Pro 8:1  Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

v. 6  Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

v. 12  I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
v. 13  The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
v. 14  Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
v. 15  By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
v. 16  By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
v. 17  I (wisdom) love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
v. 18  Riches and honor are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
v. 19  My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
v. 20  I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

v. 22  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
v. 23  I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever (before) the earth was.

Wisdom is speaking in the first person, “I” wisdom. “I” was with the Lord in the beginning before there ever was any works. “I” was set up… ever the earth was.” Before there was an earth.

Pro 8:24  When there was no depths, I was brought forth, when there were no fountains abounding with waters, 
v. 25  Before mountains were settled, Before the hills was, I brought forth. 
v. 26  While as yet He had not made the earth, or the fields or the highest parts of the dusts of the world.
v. 27  When He prepared the heavens I was there, when He set a compass upon the face of the earth,
v. 28   When He established the clouds above: when He strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Who was there with God? [Wisdom]  Wisdom! Before anything was made, who was there with God? [Wisdom] Wisdom! Where did it come from? It took a little digging to get this out. 

Verse 24 “When there was no depths, I was brought forth.” Now before I get into that, understand that terms that applied to us are applied to God. The Bible talks about men of power… does God have power? [Yes] Is the power that God possesses greater or lesser than the power men possesses? [Greater] Much greater, considerably greater, infinitesimally more greater. 

Does God have mercy? [Yes] Does He have more mercy than men? [Yes]

Does God have love? [Yes] Same love that we have, right, same amount? [No] You cannot compare the love that God has with the love that we have. Yes we have love and we kind of know what it means. But it can not be compared with the love that God has.

Therefore whatever words are applied to us, when they are applied to Him it’s infinitesimally more greater and more profound. Agreed? [Yes] Okay. 

The word there “brought forth” is H2342 chûl (khool, kheel) A primitive root; properly to twist or to dance (in some contexts, but there is only one application of it), to writhe in pain… 

Not just to hurt…  you know ‘writhing’ in pain, when you can’t even think straight. 

- bear, bring forth, calve, great, grieve, grievous, be in pain, sore, sorrow, travail (with pain).

Those are powerful words aren’t they. If you went through all that you would think you were in childbirth. Guess what this word means here, “I was brought forth”? Travailed - birthed. Can this mean what it says? 

Before God could create us and the universe and creatures in His own likeness, He had to know how to do it. How hard was that? ‘Oh but nothing is too hard for God.’ There is nothing 'too hard' for God. Too hard, that means impossible, but how close to that does it come? Are things very very hard for God at times? Did God ever do a honest days work? Did God ever suffer? Was God ever longsuffering? Did He have to have patience? 

He could not build this universe until He possessed the wisdom to do it before the creation came, the master plan and the wisdom to do it. How did He get that wisdom? He birthed it! Under the travail and pain and agony, that He passed on to women to experience a minute little insignificant part of what it is like to bring about children that are going to be in the image of God. 

He travailed with pain and agony, until wisdom was birthed out of Him, so that He could now build the universe. It says so! Well you can say, ‘I don’t see it.’ I don’t care, this wisdom was with Him before the heavens and the earth, it was with Him. But where did it come from? He birthed it with great pain, travail and sorrow. It was difficult for God! So don’t think that God hasn’t done anything for us. 

God has never suffered? God has never had to work hard? God has never had to go long periods of time and not get what it is He wanted? Don’t think that way anymore. You have a Father in heaven that can identify with everything you are.



But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 1Cr 1:24
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Where is Jesus came from?
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2013, 11:29:07 AM »


Hi santgem,

Ray was asked a question at a Bible study about what he had said at the conference about birthing wisdom, was that the Son... here is an excerpt.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=10538.0 ------------

but when He came up with the master plan He birthed it, with great pain and sorrow.  That’s why He used the word birth and he didn’t create it. Before it was birthed it wasn’t here.   

So God came to a time…Well you say, ‘if eternity is like a circle, where is that?’ I don’t know. I’m not saying that I understand all the mysteries of the universe.  I’m saying I can understand the things that He teaches us. So if there was a time, if wisdom was birthed, then that is an event that happened some ‘time.’ Then there was a time before it was birthed that it wasn’t here. Then there was after it was birthed, it was here. 
v
[Comment from attendee: Is wisdom Jesus? He is the first fruit, He is the beginning.]  No, it’s got to be more than that, because God birthed ‘it’ and the it has to do with ability and cleverness and all of those, if you look up the definition of wisdom. 

It means more than just bringing into being some other being that possesses these qualities.  Because, quite frankly, if Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then when did He become the Son of God?  Well you will say, ‘when He was born.’  No, He was called the Son before that.  So how then, was wisdom necessary to make a Son?  Well where did He come up with the idea of a Son anyway?  Where did He come up with the idea of a family?  Well He did, because we are here and we have family relationship and so on.  Where did He come up with that?   Did mothers and fathers and children and aunts and uncles and cousins did they exist before the creation of the heavens?  No.  Well then God came up with that.

You say, ‘no, God inhabited eternity.  In eternity nothing changes and nothing happens, so therefore we existed and the universe existed before it was created.  Because if He didn’t create it and then He created it, then something happened.’  Are we saying that He made it first and then it entered His mind what He did?  Like He said, ’Oh my, look what I did, I wonder where that idea came from.’   It’s nonsense.
--------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Logged

santgem

  • Guest
Re: Where is Jesus came from?
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2013, 04:00:20 AM »


Hi santgem,

Ray was asked a question at a Bible study about what he had said at the conference about birthing wisdom, was that the Son... here is an excerpt.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=10538.0 ------------

but when He came up with the master plan He birthed it, with great pain and sorrow.  That’s why He used the word birth and he didn’t create it. Before it was birthed it wasn’t here.   

So God came to a time…Well you say, ‘if eternity is like a circle, where is that?’ I don’t know. I’m not saying that I understand all the mysteries of the universe.  I’m saying I can understand the things that He teaches us. So if there was a time, if wisdom was birthed, then that is an event that happened some ‘time.’ Then there was a time before it was birthed that it wasn’t here. Then there was after it was birthed, it was here. 
v
[Comment from attendee: Is wisdom Jesus? He is the first fruit, He is the beginning.]  No, it’s got to be more than that, because God birthed ‘it’ and the it has to do with ability and cleverness and all of those, if you look up the definition of wisdom. 

It means more than just bringing into being some other being that possesses these qualities.  Because, quite frankly, if Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then when did He become the Son of God?  Well you will say, ‘when He was born.’  No, He was called the Son before that.  So how then, was wisdom necessary to make a Son?  Well where did He come up with the idea of a Son anyway?  Where did He come up with the idea of a family?  Well He did, because we are here and we have family relationship and so on.  Where did He come up with that?   Did mothers and fathers and children and aunts and uncles and cousins did they exist before the creation of the heavens?  No.  Well then God came up with that.

You say, ‘no, God inhabited eternity.  In eternity nothing changes and nothing happens, so therefore we existed and the universe existed before it was created.  Because if He didn’t create it and then He created it, then something happened.’  Are we saying that He made it first and then it entered His mind what He did?  Like He said, ’Oh my, look what I did, I wonder where that idea came from.’   It’s nonsense.
--------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Thank you Kat for additional info.....

[Comment from attendee: Is wisdom Jesus? He is the first fruit, He is the beginning.]  No, it’s got to be more than that, because God birthed ‘it’ and the it has to do with ability and cleverness and all of those, if you look up the definition of wisdom. 

It means more than just bringing into being some other being that possesses these qualities.  Because, quite frankly, if Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then when did He become the Son of God?  Well you will say, ‘when He was born.’  No, He was called the Son before that.



Now then, if Jesus was called the Son of God before he was actually born and Jesus is more than to be called wisdom by the mere  definition that we have available now,

Will it be God the Father was called Father before he actually have a Son?





Rev 3:14  "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
    "These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: (NKJV)

Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:" (CLV)

Rev 3:14 And, unto the messenger of the assembly, in Laodicea, write:—These things, saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness the beginning of the creation of God: (Rotherham)

“Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s new creation: NLTRev 3:14(NLT)
Footnote:
* 3:14 Or the ruler, or the source.

“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. (NIV)

“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: (NASB)

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: "The Amein, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things: (HNV)



Kat did you not consider other translations of Rev. 3:14. In my opinion some translations is like saying that Jesus is the source of the  beginning of creation of God not Jesus as the First creation of God. What is your opinion?
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Where is Jesus came from?
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2013, 10:38:26 AM »


Quote
Kat did you not consider other translations of Rev. 3:14. In my opinion some translations is like saying that Jesus is the source of the  beginning of creation of God not Jesus as the First creation of God. What is your opinion?

Hi santgem, not sure what you are saying here... what I gather from Rev 3:14 is that the Son was brought forth from the Father to be the Beginning - the Head - the Ruler of what is to be accomplished in this whole creation (physical and spiritual). The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself as God over it all and the Son is a Being/Man, like those that were to be in this creation. He had to be the first thing in order to get it all started, because it was the Son that would be used to do everything else, of course through the power of the Holy Spirit.

I think that Father and Son is the best may to describe what the relationship is of God family, though any physical analogy really is inadequate to describe the spiritual... but it is the terms that Jesus Christ used. So it was the Son (even before His physical birth) throughout the OT that we hear of and there are a few verses that say as much.

Dan 7:13  "I was watching in the night visions,
       And behold, One like the Son of Man,
       Coming with the clouds of heaven!
       He came to the Ancient of Days,
       And they brought Him near before Him.

Dan 3:25  "Look!" he answered, "I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."

He was always the Son from when He was first brought forth from the Source of all/everything (even what is beyond this creation), the Father, but He also was always a Man, look at His description in the OT.

Eze 1:26  And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27  Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28  Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.
    So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.

This is the glory of the Lord God, the Son, yet it is still in the form of a man, which is something that we can comprehend.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 11:44:09 AM by Kat »
Logged

John from Kentucky

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 903
Re: Where is Jesus came from?
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2013, 03:23:50 PM »

Santgem is correct in quoting several translations of Revelation 3:14

In the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established.

If you study further into the Greek words arche and ktisis in Revelation 3:14, you find the principal meaning to be Jesus is the Origin or Source of creation.  Jesus is not a creature.

In the Greek New Testament, the word for God is Theos.

The Scriptures prove that Jesus is God (Theos).

1st witness, the Word was God (Theos). John 1:1

2nd witness, Thomas called Jesus My Lord and My God (Theos). John 20:28

God (Theos) is the Creator not the created (creature).

1st witness that Jesus is the Creator God, ...all things were created by Him, and for Him:  And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. Colossians 1:16-17

2nd witness, John referring to Jesus said, ...the world was made by Him.  John 1:10
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Where is Jesus came from?
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2013, 06:18:55 PM »


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12075.0.html ----

Dear Andy:

Thank you for your email and questions.  I'm afraid that I cannot go into much detail at present, although  I have spend probably a couple of hundred hours on this subject this past year, and intend to write a paper on it in the future, but not today. It will probbly be titled: "Is Jesus GOD?"

A couple of things: When I wrote that paper on the Trinity (about ten years ago), I unfortunately allowed myself to use terms that trinitarians use (example, "person").  I have since spend many many hours in the Scriptures on the trinitarian use of that word "person."  It is a most unforunate choice of words to describe God. Conclusion:  Jesus IS a person, whereas His Father is NOT a person.  Don't have time to prove it now, but that's the truth.  And no, I do not teach that the Holy Spirit OF God is a person.  I have no idea where you thought that I might be teaching that.

While it is true that Jesus did NOT say:  "I and My Father are One GOD," there nonetheless, needs further clarification on that verse, which I did not cover in my paper. My new paper will be rather lengthy, I'm afraid, as the subject of the divinity of Jesus is a huge subject.

Here is another point for you to ponder until my paper comes out (and no, it won't be in the six months, so don't be looking for it any time soon).  Look at I Cor. 8:6 again.  Notice that it does not say, "But to us there is but one God, the Father." (Period).  Nor does it say, "One Lord Jesus Christ." (Period).  There is more to consider.  Is this verse saying that "God the Father" is the ONLY God," and that Jesus, therefore cannot also be "God?"  For sure Jesus can't be HIS OWN FATHER, but can Jesus also be "the ONE God?"  Look at that first statement again, as it IS in the Scripture as I will re-emphasize the words to make this one point:  "But to us there is but ONE God, the Father, OF WHOM ARE ALL THINGS."  There is only One God, the Father,  OUT OF Whom ALL IS" (Concordant Literal New Testament and The Emphatic Diaglott). 

Then concerning Jesus we read:  "One Lord Jesus Christ, BY Whom are all things."  "Of" and "by" are two different words--"of" is applied to the Father, where as "by" is applied to the Son.  Actually the word "by" is better translated "through," but that doesn't change the fact that they are different and are applied to different actions.

(See Rotherham's emphasized Bible, The Emphatic Diaglott, and The Concordant Literal New Testament for verification of the word "through").  All creation is "OF" God the Father, but since Jesus was also created, not all creation is OF Jesus. But the act of creation is attributed to Jesus (See I Collosians, etc.), hence it is "through" Jesus that all the things of creation are brought into existence by or "through" Jesus Christ.
 
I'll have to end with that. As I said, this is a very large subject, but I will try to write on it in the future, God willing.

God be with you,

Ray
Logged

John from Kentucky

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 903
Re: Where is Jesus came from?
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2013, 06:52:32 PM »

Kat,

Would it do any good to point out that the email you quoted is dated August 7, 2010, and Ray's email, which I list below, is dated April 2, 2011?  In the later email Ray states his previous writings did not take into consideration all the Scriptures on the subject.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12934.0.html

It is almost like there is a shroud over peoples ability to see and understand.

John
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Where is Jesus came from?
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2013, 07:32:48 PM »


So John do you want to pick and choose what we should believe that Ray taught according to certain dates and what JFK says is valid?

I am going by what he has taught according to Scripture and not what he was struggling to put together while battling cancer.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Logged

John from Kentucky

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 903
Re: Where is Jesus came from?
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2013, 07:54:19 PM »


So John do you want to pick and choose what we should believe that Ray taught according to certain dates and what JFK says is valid?

I am going by what he has taught according to Scripture and not what he was struggling to put together while battling cancer.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Kat,

Ray was also battling cancer at the time of the August 2010 email, which you quoted.

In his April 2, 2011 and later emails Ray was lucid and did not appear confused.  I understood the questions he raised by quoting the Scriptures.

However, for the sake of peace, I will not make any further comments on this nature/enigma of God subject.

But those pesky little Scriptures brought out by Ray and me will not go away.  Complete understanding will not come until all the Scriptures are put together on the subject.

John
Logged

Dave in Tenn

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4311
    • FaceBook David Sanderson
Re: Where is Jesus came from?
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2013, 08:31:41 PM »

It makes little difference to me "created" or "born"...those aren't even the only terms used.  "Come out of" is in there somewhere.

Why not, Dave?

Thanks for asking, Dave.  I'll try to explain, knowing that it will fail.

It's because I have a "higher" view of just what "creation" means.  This universe is not like a box of tinker-toys put together by a higher power out there someplace.  It's all "out of God".  Sometimes "birthed" is a good analogy.  Sometimes "created" is a good analogy.  One doesn't mean the other is untrue--except maybe to a theologian, one of which thankfully I am not.
Logged
Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

santgem

  • Guest
Re: Where is Jesus came from?
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2013, 03:31:55 AM »

It makes little difference to me "created" or "born"...those aren't even the only terms used.  "Come out of" is in there somewhere.

Why not, Dave?

Thanks for asking, Dave.  I'll try to explain, knowing that it will fail.

It's because I have a "higher" view of just what "creation" means.  This universe is not like a box of tinker-toys put together by a higher power out there someplace.  It's all "out of God".  Sometimes "birthed" is a good analogy.  Sometimes "created" is a good analogy.  One doesn't mean the other is untrue--except maybe to a theologian, one of which thankfully I am not.

Hi Dave greetings!

I have  my understanding of Scriptures when i read Ray's articles and writings but of course the Spirit of the Lord guides me and enlightened me.

Before i was really afraid of death and everthing in my life but again of course there are things also that makes me afraid until now and that is natural but not as the same degree as before.

It is a horrible thing for me  about death before. If i died and was a dead person i was worried where my soul go and who will accompany me to bring to hell or to heaven or to some places or to lonely places, soooooooo many questions.

All was cleared upon reading Ray's writings and other things which i am asking a questions. In this moment i believed that there is peace and safe in death until our Lord calls us! We are just like sleeping.

A lot of us would like to know really God and Jesus and i always pray and ask Jesus to reveal Himself to me. I am eager to know Him and i can not wait to revealing Himself to me, and why not if He's willing.



In my honest opinion birthed and created is very, very different words and the gap is very very wide.


 I was contemplating about the only God formed..........Only Jesus is God formed!

  Isaiah 43 10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

12I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

13Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Where is Jesus came from?
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2013, 10:45:20 AM »


Hi santgem,

Isa 43:10  "You are My witnesses," says the LORD,
       "And My servant whom I have chosen,
       That you may know and believe Me,
       And understand that I am He.
       Before Me there was no God formed,
       Nor shall there be after Me.

Thanks for bringing that Scripture out, I don't think I have noticed it before. It does show that the Son was "formed" or made, He did have a beginning.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 09:11:44 PM by Kat »
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.046 seconds with 20 queries.