IN the day of Great slaughter, when the towers fall

[virginiabm]

Hi Zvezda, I understand what you are saying and why, but if you remember during the hundred years Noah and his sons were building the Ark, afterwards they were commanded to put the food and animals in the ark. Gen.7:11-24 especially vs. 13 tells us that it was the selfsame day that Noah and his family and the animals went into the ark that the rains came, not before. it seems to me that God gave them seven days to put everything in the ark before He shut the door and the rains came. The people were doing exactly what the word said they were doing, eating, drinking and marrying and giving in marriage until the flood came and took them all away.  I am in the process of learning too, so I am just pointing out what I believe scripture is saying. No debating.  Love and Blessing, Virginia

[zvezda]

The people were doing exactly what the word said they were doing, eating, drinking and marrying and giving in marriage until the flood came and took them all away.

But Mat 24:38 clearly tells us they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark.
It doesn't say they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that the flood came.

Mat 24:38  For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark

[Kat]

Luke 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
v. 27  They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.


Mat 24:37  But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
v. 38  For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
v. 39  and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Hi zvezda, I just don't see in the Scripture where it explains anything changed from what they were doing from before Noah went in and after he went and the flood came. Do you know of a Scripture that says they began to behave differently?

If you will notice the Scripture states what they were doing then there is "and" at the beginning of verse 39, which means it is included in what was being said. It also goes on to say they "didn't know"/believe it "until the flood came." If they had begun to behaved differently then what was just prior spoken of (eating, drinking, marriage) don't you think it would have been mentioned in Scripture? The Scripture gave a description of how the world was then and saying it will be the same at the end of the age.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[zvezda]

Hi Kat, I don't have a scripture that says they began to behave differently after Noah entered the ark, like I said in one of my previous posts (Reply #26), the Bible is silent about what happened during the 7 day gap.

As for the verses, the way I see it is that the word "and" is just a joiner (in addition) that connects 2 related events that took place on 2 different dates. Some of the other translations don't have the word "and" in Mat 24:39, some use the word "then" instead of "and" in Luke 17:27.

Why do the verses have to mention both the day Noah went in and the day the flood came? Wouldn't it be good enough to make the point by just saying they were eating, drinking, marrying and did not know until the flood came?

Let me give you an example:

I was attending a church, tithing, until the day I stumbled upon bible-truths.com,
and did not know/believe it until 7 days later when I finished reading the whole LOF series and it blowed me away.

Does it tell you I kept attending the church and tithing after I stumbled upon bible-truths.com?

[santgem]

What happened during the seven day gap? The Bible is silent about that. But what we know is that everything was business as usual until Noah entered the ark, and then something changed and people stopped having normal lifestyle during the next seven days, people didn't know what's going on until the flood came.
So I am wondering if it will be the same during end times - people will stop having normal lifestyle at some point, and then there will be a gap period between that point and the return of Jesus. Will the elect enter into a "safe place" (spiritually?) just like Noah entered into the ark before the gap period starts? And what will happen during the gap period? Didn't Ray also think that the day of the Lord comes after the great affliction?

[/quote]

Hello zvezda, Greetings!


You are asking what happened during the seven day gap. In my opinion it is business as usual in the seven days gap you are asking.

In Genesis 7 God Said to Noah to enter the ark. It would have been seven days that Noah is collecting all what Lord is telling him.
1And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. 2Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. 3Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth. 4For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth5And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.

After 7 days flood came in and thus abrupt evidenced that  all the fountains of the great deep broken up. "the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

10And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. 11In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

so meaning while Noah is collecting the things that the Lord is asking him let us say 7 days it will be a normal things to the people since the flood is not yet come. It is only after the seven days that the flood came in and it is abrupt evidenced in verse 10 that the waters of the flood were upon the earth and all the fountains of the great deep broken up.

That is the 7 gap days you are asking and they dont know the flood is coming until seven days had been passed. They were eating, drinking, marrying............

Mat 24:37  But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
v. 38  For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
v. 39  and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

[zvezda]

You are asking what happened during the seven day gap. In my opinion it is business as usual in the seven days gap you are asking.

Hi santgem,
Why does Mat 24:38 say "they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark"?
Why doesn't it say "they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that the flood came"?

[santgem]

You are asking what happened during the seven day gap. In my opinion it is business as usual in the seven days gap you are asking.

Hi santgem,
Why does Mat 24:38 say "they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark"?
Why doesn't it say "they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that the flood came"?

hi again zvezda,

The answer is in verse 39, And knew not until the flood came.

Mat 24:39
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

[zvezda]

You are asking what happened during the seven day gap. In my opinion it is business as usual in the seven days gap you are asking.

Hi santgem,
Why does Mat 24:38 say "they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark"?
Why doesn't it say "they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that the flood came"?

hi again zvezda,

The answer is in verse 39, And knew not until the flood came.

Mat 24:39
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

hi santgem, please see my reply to Kat (Reply #43).

[Kat]

Why do the verses have to mention both the day Noah went in and the day the flood came? Wouldn't it be good enough to make the point by just saying they were eating, drinking, marrying and did not know until the flood came?

The reason that the 7 days are mentioned is because it did happen that way and God saw fit to have it recorded as fact and do believe there is a reason that God wanted it to be put in there, but I have already said what I think it is.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[zvezda]

Hi Kat, I was in a hurry when I first made this post, I just edited it.

Why do the verses have to mention both the day Noah went in and the day the flood came? Wouldn't it be good enough to make the point by just saying they were eating, drinking, marrying and did not know until the flood came?

The reason that the 7 days are mentioned is because it did happen that way and God saw fit to have it recorded as fact and do believe there is a reason that God wanted it to be put in there, but I have already said what I think it is.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

That's the point, Kat.
God saw fit to have it recorded as fact that there were 2 events, with 2 end dates. it wasn't two events with one end date. It's like God is telling us event1 was happening until date1, and event2 was happening until date2.

It was business as usual either until the day Noah entered the ark, or until the flood came, you can't have it both ways.

To make the verses more clear, I think we can insert the 2 dates into the verses. Let's assume Noah entered the ark on Dec 1, and seven days later the flood came on Dec 8.

Luke 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
v. 27  They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark [on Dec 1], and the flood came [on Dec 8] and destroyed them all.


Mat 24:37  But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
v. 38  For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark [on Dec 1],
v. 39  and did not know until the flood came [on Dec 8] and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

If you still think they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until Dec 8, then I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

By the way, I remember Dennis once questioned about "the tribulations in the end time and also what seems to be a normal lifestyle with getting married, etc. How can both be true at the same time" (see http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,14735.msg130374.html#msg130374 )

I was thinking it makes more sense if people stop having normal lifestyle during the tribulations, just like the 7 days between Noah entered the ark and when the flood came.

[Kat]

I was thinking it makes more sense if people stop having normal lifestyle during the tribulations, just like the 7 days between Noah entered the ark and when the flood came.

Okay zvezda I get what you are saying, the Scripture are to the elect and the 'tribulation' happens during their lives as they are being prepared. Noah was being persecuted by the people while he was building the ark, not after he entered it.

John 16:33  These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."


http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm -------------

And notice what John tells us in Revelation:

"And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Thy judgments" (Rev. 16:7).

It is not by escaping tribulation that we enter God's Kingdom (as in the unscriptural rapture theory), but by going "through much tribulation."

The phrase "The great tribulation" is used hundreds of thousands of times by the Church, and yet (just as there is no such thing as "THE antichrist") there is no such phrase in the Bible as "The great tribulation." Oh there is tribulation and great tribulation alright, but not just one called "The" tribulation.
v

"Immediately after [does everyone understand the difference between 'before' and 'after?'] ...immediately after the tribulation of those days.... He [Jesus] shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet [I Cor. 15:52], and they shall gather together His elect [for the first time, I might also add] from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:29 & 31).

One other major point: Clearly this verse and others show that Christ returns "after the tribulation of those days." "But in those days, after the tribulation... shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His Elect..." (Mark 13:24 & 27). 

And Jesus is said to come in wrath:

"...hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of His wrath is come..." (Rev. 6:16-17)

"And the seventh angel sounded... [the seventh trump is the last trump, I Cor. 15:52] ...and Thy wrath is come..." (Rev. 11:18)

The days of "great tribulation" end at Christ's presence, and the day of "His wrath" begins at His presence. They are two separate and different events, and different judgments on different people for different purposes. If you have not seen or do not understand the absolute differences in Scripture between tribulation and affliction versus wrath and indignation, then be sure to read my ten-page section dealing with it in detail, in my paper "Exposing the Secret Rapture Theory."

Tribulation is almost exclusively administered to God's people.
--------------------------------------------------------

Rev 7:9  After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
Rev 7:13  Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
Rev 7:14  And I said to him, "Sir, you know."  So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Maybe we cannot resolve the way we are seeing this here, but we are all still studying and learning these things.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[zvezda]

the Scripture are to the elect and the 'tribulation' happens during their lives as they are being prepared. Noah was being persecuted by the people while he was building the ark, not after he entered it.

yeah, I know the elect are going through trials and tribulations, I know judgement begins at the house of God.

So let me get this straight -  Besides the tribulations that the elect are going through in their lives, there is no such thing as "end time tribulations", correct? Because from Dennis's post, I got the impression that Ray also thought there would be end time tribulations.


I am also stuck with this verse:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

What kind of tribulation are the elect going through that hasn't taken place from the beginning of the world until now, and never will again? I thought whatever an elect was going through, it's nothing new, it happened before, and it would happen again to other elect?

[Kat]

Well zvezda, I have my opinions, but I just do not feel I can continue this discussion on something that Ray did not teach on. Now if you are interested pm's are another way to discuss things as well and I'm just going to leave it at that.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Ian 155]

Not to sure about all the prophetic stuff however the whole flood ,married ,giving in marriage,like a thief etc is Christ coming in us this is seemingly a process whereby Christ is formed in us by the Father " it is now no longer I that live but Christ in me' so yes I believe I have the spirit of God and all these things such as idols ,towers etc are coming down - seems the process is.... at that time,woe to those who are pregnant or nursing when this happens there were 2 at the mill grinding, one was taken etc [separation] first, exclusion, hated by all men etc get the pic ?

When Jesus starts clearing Gods temple ,using a whip ,turning over tables [or everything we have been taught by life in this world starts becoming strangely dimmer etc ] then you have no choice but to live by faith it seems


I dont think one can prepare for this event either

the coming of our Lord in us is like no other, its terrifying according to Moses, Daniel and John

Yes Alex I have read the towers papers however I am referring to Rays main thrust throughout all his material ....

as I understand it

[lareli]

Isaiah 9:10

10 The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycomores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars.

On 9/11 The bricks fell down and a single Sycamore tree was uprooted. On 9/12 Tom Daschel quoted Isaiah 9:10 in response to the events of the day prior. No one had yet known any tree had been uprooted. Tom Daschel meant for those words to bring comfort to the peple but Isaiah 9:10 is actually Israels defiant spirit towards God who was giving them a chance to return to Him. On the same day as Tom Daschel quoting Isaiah 9:10, John Kerry says that the US should right away commit to rebuilding a world trade center tower to show the world our defiance.

Fast forward a couple years and the new trade center tower is underway using a humungous hewn stone as the corner stone and a big ceremony ensues around this hewn stone. Also that sycamore tree that was uprooted is cast into a bronze sculpture and placed on wall street. Where the sycamore originally was planted, they went ahead and replaced it with a cedar and call it the tree of hope with a similarly symbolic ceremony as the hewn stone. Some say it wasnt a cedar, others say it was or closest thing to it... I dunno. Im not an arbhorist (spelling).

Three years after 9/11 John Edwards quoted Isaiah 9:10, again as a rallying cry but not knowing the actual meaning of the verse.

7 years after 9/11 we had the stock market crash (remember the sculpture of the sycamore is on wall st.) where the market crashed 777 points. 777.67 to be exact. Afterwards similar calls of "we will rebuild, we will rebuild" go out from the mouths of the nations leaders including the current potus after his election. The potus also writes on one of the beams used in the new trade center tower, "we will rebuild, we will come back stronger"

Whether any of this means anything, I have my thoughts, but I really dont know. At the very least it would make for a good movie huh?

[santgem]

What will gonna be when the time comes?

No matter how many Prophets, angels, demons, teachers, bibles, preachers, priests, pastors, messengers, reverends, tidal waves, earthquakes, typhoons, wars, famines,tornadoes is to come people will go business as usual. This is very similar to the Parable of the Richman and Lazarus.


The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus


(John 5:39-47)


19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seethe Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[Ian 155]

these scriptures seem to refer to the catastrophic event on 9/11 this could also be human rational - I mean there are far greater acts of violence recorded all over with far more casualties, we can go way back and find great disaster.

I cannot say for sure that this event was predicted by Isaiah,  I am not sure these towers and the devastation they caused would change man one bit in fact after reading the plans for the new edition ........

Nations paid heavy prices for rejecting the Lord in the OT these are shadows of what will take place in us.in us towers are destroyed , in us, twin towers are destroyed in us, the only cornerstone is the capstone, Jesus Christ .

Seems this tower thing is a bit like focusing on externals such as baptism and circumcision ,bloodline etc 

So don't be concerned about man made theories the corner stone has been laid, God will build anyway,he is a master at what he does...

They can rebuild 50 more twin Tower buildings that will not bring any change in us because "unless God builds the temple [us] the laborers [us] labor in vain"

PS when i read about all the theories ie structural weakening ,explosions within the buildings that took place and the insurance policies taken out prior to the fall of the TT I am absolutely horrified that the possibility of greed to that degree,actually exists in us.

[se7en]

Such a good discussion. Alex, I think we are on the right train of thought here... I'm so glad you started this question, we all help each other grow!

My two cents...

The Lord is in the business of saving us.. CURRENTLY... Right now. Because He "IS" right now. Talked about in Ray's "12 Truths to Understanding His Word".

His words are spirit and they are life and they apply RIGHT NOW to every person that He's opened their ears and eyes to see the spirit of His Word.

If we focus on someone else "out there"  or put the Word out into the future, on some other people in some other time... Then there is no internal benefit for us RIGHT NOW, and God's precious fiery Word would have lost its meaning within our hearts.

Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

They were asking about "Those guys" over "there" somewhere else. Who happened to have the tower fall on "those other guys". The spiritual truth is that it's not about "THEM" in the future or in the past... (well it is, while they were alive in their age, it concerned them), but right now it's primarily about ME....and YOU who have ears to hear and eyes to see God changing us and burning out the old man within us, and replacing the old man with His (Christ's) mindset.

Isa 30:25 And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.

Those are spiritual words! I'm not saying that they don't have a outward physical application, I'm sure they do. But the Lord is speaking to us spiritually here. We compare spiritual with spiritual. The physical is temporary.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

It doesn't matter if it's a tower, or a mountain or a beast... whatever HIGH THING that exalts itself against the knowledge of God.... In each person's appointed time when the Lord reveals himself the TOWER FALLS. The beast is displaced, the mountain comes crumbling down.  If we keep looking "out there" on "someone else" the Lord's words will have no purifying effect in our lives. The tower represents any high thing that we exalt against the knowledge of God.

The primary purpose of scripture is spiritual, for me, right now. All the symbols and types and shadows are there to show me a spiritual truth within me. He's building His kingdom... within us. Let this mind be in you. God's Word stands for all time for each person's age in which they live, that's how it has a "future tense" and "past tense" application as well.

Truth number 11 from Ray's article "12 Truths to Understanding His Word".  "Grace be into you, and peace, from Him which IS and which WAS, and which IS TO COME..." (Rev. 1:4).

That's my two cents. I hope I have Christ's mind in this, what do you guys think?

[lilitalienboi16]

Hello Seven,

You bring great reminders. I feel I must clarify my position and intent.

I am in no way, disagreeing with those of you who are of the mindset that the scriptures and prophecies have deeper spiritual implications and that they are written for the admonition of those called and chosen by God.

As paul said; All these things happened unto them as examples for us. I agree completely!

My reason for starting this thread was to see if there was anything of interest out there that related to the NATURAL form of the prophecies.

1 Corinthians 15:46 "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual."

The purpose of this thread was to look into the natural fulfillment of prophecy and what, if anything, the scriptures can tell us about them as they relate to the times.

It very well may be that there isn't much good in us trying to better understand the prophecies as literal events as they relate to our time (not because they don't but because these things are locked up and not for us to understand currently) but I thought it would be worth a shot considering the recent turn of events we are experiencing in our country (USA) and how ray spoke of 9/11. Clearly though, there are certain prophetic events which have not been literally fulfilled and that I pointed too earlier in this thread.

Either way, this discussion has been very edifying and I'm grateful for that! Everyone has contributed in a positive way to my understanding and reminding of important truths.

As I've said: I have began my studies on this matter with the mind of Christ. Something I could not do before and perhaps things will become more clear with time, however long that time may be. It is also possible that things may never be more clear than they are now, that this is the extent of our understanding on these things that we can glimpse from the Word of God.

Whatever the out come may be, I won't lose sleep over it. Ultimately, I trust in the Lord in all things. We are of the same spirit and like mind and therefor, I have peace in all these matters as the rest of you who are of like mind. The main goal is continue striving towards Christ, running the race and putting off the old man. That, by the Grace of God, will never change.
All this... is just an aside note

God bless,

Alex

[rickylittleton]

Well, just to add in my 2 cents, we all know what the bible says that will take place in the last days. "It will take place!'. I think it's just a matter of fact of how God will move men, kings, nations of this world according to His will, just so His will will be done! Tim