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[se7en]

I'm going to restate Santgem's post....

GOD CREATES AND USES EVIL FOR GOOD!

He is using "all of this" for the salvation of all. Nothing is wasted. It's all necessary to save every last one of us. *does tippy-toe happy dance*

[rick]

                                                              Theophilus

The question you asked me is a question I now believe many believers probably been asking for two thousand years,   ( How are we to square our experience with 1 Peter 2:11-12 )

I’m not sure how one squares this with Peter 2: 11- 2 ) I come to understand that I have a will that is subjected to Gods will, I read many scriptures in the new testament that seems to suggest that the believer is to conquer their sin issue. Now I found in my life if I try to conquer a particular sin I end up doing that sin even more.
But what am I saying to God when I try to conquer any sin in my life ? Oh just sit there Lord and let me show you how I can conquer my sins, but then how do I square away with Rom 8: 20 -22


"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

There are so many things I don’t understand but this I do believe , I read somewhere in the lake of fire where Ray said one will want to stop sinning long before they do stop sinning.

I’m apart of God’s creation just like any other one , I don’t call the shots I ‘m not a sinner because I sin but rather I sin because I’m a sinner. Sinning comes so natural by nature but the difference for me is I never saw myself as a sinner where as now I do.

So now I see I’m a sinner and tried to stop sinning but the more I try to stop sinning the more I sin so what should I say to this? Maybe God wants me to see I’m a sinner and God wants me to stop sinning on my own but I discovered I can not stop on my own.

So I conclude when I no longer sin its ( A ) I’m dead and can no longer sin or ( B ) God stops me from sinning by His willing me not to sin. When I do stop sinning I know it will only be by the grace of God I stop sinning and no other way.

P.S. I’m still learning but learning from a nature I was given by God which is stated in Rom 8: 20 -22 . He’s the potter I’m the pot, God help me is all I can say, I’m at God’s mercy

Thank you for your question as it got me thinking.


Love and peace to all.

[arion]

So now I see I’m a sinner and tried to stop sinning but the more I try to stop sinning the more I sin so what should I say to this? Maybe God wants me to see I’m a sinner and God wants me to stop sinning on my own but I discovered I can not stop on my own.

All people including Christians have a beast within themselves sitting on the throne of our hearts.  That beast indeed claims that it is a 'god' with the power of it's free will that everyone thinks that they have.  That is the one thing that people have in common with each other and all religions and even atheists believe that they have.  They think they have free will and free moral agency even though the scriptures tell us it isn't so.  This is certainly an idol of the heart we are all born with, one of the most difficult to overcome and indeed can't be overcome at all unless God gives us the power to do so.  Even to see this beast takes spiritual vision that only God can give. 

That is why our primary battle isn't an outward one against other nations, peoples, politicians, moral depravity, ect, ect, ect.  It's an internal battle against the beast who doesn't want to be dethroned.  Interesting thing though is you ask a Christian if they want to live an obedient life and if they want to quit sinning [insert the particular sin that grabs them more than others] and of course they will say that they want to overcome this anchor in their lives that they know isn't pleasing to God. 

Ask them if they want to overcome it and want to be obedient and they say yes.  Then ask them what happened to their 'free will' and then they are silenced.  Paul describes this battle of all battles in Romans 7.  Oh yes, we all have a will to be sure but it's anything but free.  We aren't free until Christ makes us free and it happens in his way and his timing and not our own.  Indeed as Ray has taught we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.  The focus is on the fear and trembling because if God doesn't do it [the overcoming] in us it isn't going to get done.  I am mindful of this every day.  Regardless...God has a timetable for each and every one of us and not even our own bumbling and foul ups can change that time table one iota.  You, I, all of us are right where God wants us to be right now at this point in time.  To me, that is pretty encouraging.

[DougE6]

Surely we have some victories, don't we? 

Do we walk in the spirit sometimes? Does not the scriptures say that if we walk in the spirit we will not gratify the sinful nature?

There are some sins that I seem powerless to get over. But I DO want to become victorious. And I can see that I have changed and I did obey in some other areas and that gave me joy even though I fail in this other area.

Surely our struggles teach us deep lessons. Humble us. I know God loves humility in His people.

I just don't believe it is right to have a defeatist attitude. When I find one in me at times, I repent of it. Surely the joy of the Lord can give us strength.

Don't give up. This is not beastly to have an attitude of obedience.  I don't want to be the one who buries his one talent in the ground and does nothing.

Mat 25:24  He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25  so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.'
Mat 25:26  But his master answered him, 'You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27  Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28  So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29  For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30  And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

[rick]

I believe as God has taught through Ray which is I have not free will and think , do and say as God directs my footsteps 24/7......365 days a year. I have planted my feet on a sure foundation this time around but wait.....was it not God that planted my feet? Surely it was God and surely it was God that brought me to this website know as B.T.

I will stop sinning when God says so and that is that. Anyone who claims to be righteous is only so because of God and none other.

What I have learned here at B.T. I view it as God’s truths with all my heart. I think if anyone tells me that I play a role in any part of my salvation may be sincere but is sincerely wrong. 

I come to understand that God owns even my next breath as well as my every decision and all action although my action may be of God but not of God and even this I have come to understand.

I believe Jesus is the savior of the world specially of those who believe so either way Jesus got me covered and Jesus made sure I come to understand this too.

I learned the war is from within not from without and Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith, faith that He gave me , I didn’t give me faith and also I come to understand everything I have in my life He allotted those things to me even my life has he given to me.

These are my beliefs which I have learned here at B.T. and I’m going to run with them and I know in the end I will be found with the right belief system because God saw to it that I should acknowledge him in spirit and in truth. 


Peace and Love to all.

[DougE6]

" I believe Jesus is the savior of the world specially of those who believe so either way Jesus got me covered and Jesus made sure I come to understand this too. "

Jesus definitely is the saviour of all and the whole world> But is not the First Resurrection a prize to be sought for? Who wants to miss out on .... Speaking for myself I am REALLY happy that Jesus will save all but don't want to be merely covered, I don't want to miss out.

" Mat 16:26  For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
Mat 16:27  For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
Mat 16:28  Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Jesus is electing some to sit on his throne with him where the second death has no power over.  As Pauls says God is going to judge us according to what we have DONE

Rom 2:6  He will render to each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7  to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal(age abiding) life;
Rom 2:8  but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

I think one of the biggest tragedies would be at that day to say...wait wait I understood all the correct doctrine! I knew about no free will! I knew Jesus is the Saviour of all!

And then he says,  Great! SO how did you demonstrate your love and obedience to me?

What will one say? I learned as much "truth" as I could but YET because I didn't feel motivated to do anything hard I did almost nothing and I pretty much was just waiting on you to do something through me and nothing every really happened so I didn't do anything.....

I wonder what the Lord's response will be.

I am only saying this to encourage people to try! It is NOT wrong to struggle to try to seek and to desire and to shed blood sweat and tears for this truth that you believe. If you love Him you will overcome. Jesus is coming back for overcomers.

[rick]

                                                             Hi Doug

What you said sounds nice Doug but I see a lot of free will in it my brother, Its Jesus who  determines who will be the elect, not us. Now having said that, the more we know on this side of the resurrection is a good thing and even that is of our Lords doing.

All must come to and accurate knowledge of God and its God who is going to do it all in us and not us.

I'm seeing the the beast for who and what he is and the beast loves to do it all does he not, you know what I mean, it says sit back Lord Jesus and let me show you how I can do this that and the other thing.

I can do nothing on my own except that which God gives me to do, nothing more nothing less.

No brother Doug it won't be a shame if I find at the resurrection if I'm in the second resurrection because that's where Jesus wanted me to be and if I'm in the first resurrection it's only because its where Christ wanted me to be but either way it was always of Him by Him and for Him.

Understanding we don't have free will or choice lets us understand all is of God but not by God my friend in Christ. And yes I have a long way to GO.
                                             
                                                        Doug, you said

I think one of the biggest tragedies would be at that day to say...wait wait I understood all the correct doctrine! I knew about no free will! I knew Jesus is the Saviour of all!

And then he says, Great! SO how did you demonstrate your love and obedience to me?



         
                                        The above sounds like I have free will ,I don't have free will.

                                                   
                                                   Doug, you said


What will one say? I learned as much "truth" as I could but YET because I didn't feel motivated to do anything hard I did almost nothing and I pretty much was just waiting on you to do something through me and nothing every really happened so I didn't do anything.....


           The above sounds like I can go against Gods will, I can't 


                             Doug, you said you wonder what the Lord's response will be.


I wonder what the Lord's response will be.



He won't be quoting Frank Sinatra's song that says ( I did it my way ) again I don't have free will or choice.

If my salvation depends on me doing just one thing I'm already lost whereas if my salvation depends on Christ I shall be saved ( Jesus Christ savior of the world especially those who believe ) Jesus Christ is the  author and finisher of my faith not me, I can't even believe or have faith in Him except I be dragged to Him 


Love and peace to all.

[DougE6]

Hi Rick

I think maybe I can illustrate this way.  If I go out and commit adultery, God forbid I should say...I am only doing what God caused me to do I have no say in the matter. If I feel like doing this tomorrow, with a really strong desire, resistance is futile. I might as well do it.

Perhaps one would be better served by saying, God I repent for the wickedness in me. Change me and cleanse me please. Help me to Oh God, I beg of you, with all that is in me to no longer do this terrible sin.  I am hurting others, I am not doing the works of Christ, Christ would not commit adultery.  I am doing the works of the flesh and the evil one. Help me to overcome!

Which is the correct attitude?

If your understanding of no free will leads you more into the first position and away from the second...I cannot see how your understanding is doing anything positive.  It seems to be incredibly likely to lead one away from repentance.

I think killing the beast is God's work. Yes I agree there. But if you try to do God's work by insisting you know how God is going to change you and you are doing nothing until..adopting a complacent attitude like that, actually by default "testing God" by insisting that no good work gets done unless something happens without your active participation and blood sweat and tears...I think one is stopping the work of God in your heart in this life COLD.

The irony is that you will say, well if I never get victory or if I never do anything that simply means God is putting me on a non victorious shelf and I am consigned to the second death and will not participate in the First Resurrection.  And that would probably be the correct judgement of oneself.

[Dave in Tenn]

...But I say unto you, if a man even looks at a woman with lust, he has ALREADY committed adultery in his heart.  Jesus Christ.

It is a weak, rebellious, or ignorant person who plans to go out and "do" a sin.  But even with "strength", "humility" and "knowledge", he is incapable of changing his own heart.

I don't much care what a weak, rebellious, or ignorant person thinks of the gospel of the Kingdom and the Absolute Sovereignty of God.  Just as I don't care about those who see the "absence of Hell" as an excuse to live it up.  That is a heart which cannot even properly claim to be "converted".

Yes, there is overcoming to do...and not the least of which is the "overcoming" of this beast that sits on the throne in the place of God.  Yes, we are to fight, but NOT AS boxers boxing the air.  Yes, we are yoked together with Him, but it is HIS yoke He invites us to share, not OUR YOKE which He wants to direct.  This life is less about living than it is about dying, at least this life IN CHRIST.  It will come to everybody, each in his own turn...and it will come to those least "deserving" of it before it comes to many who think they "deserve" it.  The Lake of Fire is in the presence of the Lamb.  He is the race, and the prize. 

Of the "speculation" concerning what we will say and what will be said in resurrection , don't forget to remember what actually DOES get said, according to scripture.     

[rick]

                                                           Hi Doug 

You have me thinking now Doug and that's a good thing. Going to work now but I have somethings you said I can meditate on today and will give another reply later this evening. Thanks Doug and have a nice day my brother.

Believe me when I tell you I have a long long way to go.

Peace and love to all.

[rick]

                  Hi Doug,

After reading your response I felt as though I might have been guilty of being on the sidelines, I have been trying to understand what role do I play and how does one discern between God doing it ? or the beast doing it ?

Now we know the beast is working in all of Christendom and not Christ, But those believers believe Jesus is doing it and are waiting for the beast to show up on the seen one day as most are looking from without rather than within.
But we here at B.T. understand the beast is within us, not just within,  we are the beast.

I guess knowledge is one thing but putting knowledge into practice is another thing, its kind of funny in some ways that is to say, when I used to go to church or was apart of Christendom I was filled with lies and was always confused and now I have the truth and still confused , Lol

I do believe all will be taught righteousness when His judgements are in the earth and all will come to an accurate knowledge of God one day. I am delighted knowing that hell as I was taught it is a Christen hoax but having said that I certainly hope I'm not found guilty of using this knowledge as a licence to sin.

 Still trying to make the connection to understanding the fine line of self righteousness and the righteousness which is of God working in me!

 

So Doug, you said somethings in your reply I identified with and feel I have become complacent in certain ways or areas because of the knowledge I have learned here at B.T. and I do appreciate your response Doug.

I don't respond to any post of other believers here as I don't feel qualified and rightfully so as I'm so young in Christ and wish not to mislead anyone with my lack of knowledge but do learn much from reading other threads and responses to those thread.

For this cause do I post on B.T. I say what I believe but an older believer who reads what I write can discern if what I'm saying is accurate or not an if so great but if not please do not hold back from helping me with my understanding.

Thanks again brother Doug for your response as you given me some things to think about.



Love and peace to all.     

[Rhys 🕊]

We are all somewhere along in the journey and we can help one another. God reveals His truth bit by bit. There are some things that He shows me know that a younger believer may already understand. God knows what is best at the right time for each of us. So we should always share what we have and be open for correction. A younger believer can have something for an older believer or can trigger something off that makes the older believer search more deeply for. We should never under estimate what God may do through any of us whatever stage we see ourselves at.

Rhys

[DougE6]

Hi Rick

Do you know what I want for you? To be with Christ in the First Resurrection!  To receive the white garment, to sit on His throne with Him, to be given a name that only you and Christ share, to have the crown of life, that the second death will have no power over you...

If there is anything I can do or say that helps another seek Him and follow Him that is all I can do. And that is what I want to do.

Yes there is tension, we never want to take credit or become self righteous, yet we want to be an overcomer! I have no desire to be complacent. God forbid is I secretly let my sin sit there because I say..."I am waiting for God to get rid of it"

I KNOW I NEED GOD TO CHANGE MY HEART SO I ASK HIM TO AND I EARNESTLY ASK.  I ask God to teach me to walk in His spirit so i do not gratify my lusts.  Am I double faced to ask? NO, it is more double faced to ask but not sincerely ask with all your heart...

Yes we rest in Christ. Yes Christ slays the beast that we are. We die daily. But there is nothing wrong with asking God to kill our beast!! If He does not, then He doesn't. But I would think that any prayer from my heart for greater righteousness and to die to the flesh and pursue righteousnes, I would think that prayer is from His spirit inside me, groaning for the redemption of the body. I hate my sinful weakness!!  God shows us plenty how weak we are, but God give us your spirit to make us live in accordance with your spirit, please..

I think the scriptures are written to encourage us to pursue the gift of the resurrection of the righteous. God never tells us that we have received, our race (or walk) is in faith, and if God ever told us I am sure we would surely THEN become complacent and proud!  Just as sitting back and not trying... saying well if God picks me he picks me, I am not going to pursue ..is also complacent...

But if you do not want it, or don't want it with all your heart, do you think he will give it to you? (This has nothing to do with how deserving one is on the outside, it is all about what is on the inside)

I pray that you, Rick are one of those counted worthy to be judge of all the nations with Christ.

[Dave in Tenn]

Rick, you said when you were in church you were filled with lies.  I am supposing you meant, as all of us were, that somebody filled you with lies.  But for me, there has been a step or two beyond that in coming to understand greater truths.  That is that I don't want to be filled with lies myself.  I don't want to tell them, and I don't want to live them.  Whatever the case may be, that's what I want to acknowledge.  I've had to come to some bone-crushing realizations...many before B-T, and many since...about what is TRUE about me.  This type of "truth" was ostensibly expected in my church days, but never really accepted.

I remember the parable Jesus told about the Pharisee and the publican.  The Pharisee prayed "Thank you that I am not as this publican is."  He probably wasn't, in the way man measures goodness.  The Publican prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner."  Jesus asked the disciples which of the the two returned to his house justified.  As I remember it, the disciples didn't answer, and neither did Jesus.  I think that leaves US to answer, individually.  I know MY answer beyond any shadow of doubt.  One day, the publican will have his answer to prayer, and so will the Pharisee.  Which comes first?

 

[Dave in Tenn]

I'm not going to die before this thing is determined.  Why not?  Because it was determined from the foundation of the world.  Yet, I do not know what is determined except that which has already happened.  Therefore, I "work out my own salvation with fear and trembling" knowing it is God who works in me. 

[John from Kentucky]

I'm not into this "fear and trembling" thing.

God tells us in Philippians 4:6 not to worry about anything.  Also there is that Scripture that tells us God works out everything to the good for those who are His.

So big dumb me.  God has blessed me with the gift of believing what He says.  It would be a lie for me to state that I'm afraid of anything.  Or to try and fake "fear and trembling".

I don't even know if I want to be in the 1st Resurrection.  I really don't like religious people.  I really, really don't like religious people.  I don't like all their religious talk (In Him----Prayers Going Up---Love You Brother---Love You Sister--You're in My Prayers---Yadda, yadda, yadda).  Lovey, lovey, huggy, huggy, kissy, kissy.  Like Ray said one time, it makes me ill in the midsection.

So if Jesus can promise me no religious people will slip through the cracks and get in the 1st Resurrection, then it might be fun.  If not, then it would be kind of like hell to have to interact with religious people every day.

But there is no free will.  I'm not in charge.  So who knows what kind of people will be in the 1st Resurrection, except Jesus.

I trust Jesus in all things.  I'll accept whatever He wants (as if I have any input in the 1st place).

[microlink]

Hey John from Kentucky,

I kinda agree with you. Having religion is not Christianity. Nice words, platitudes mean little.
It is the walk the counts.
There has to be more to this "fear and trembling" thing than I can comprehend.
Maybe there is more to this phrase.
Peace

[Dave in Tenn]

John, I don't "work out my own election" with fear and trembling.  But it is better to judge oneself now than to be judged later...even if that "later" is later in this life.  There ARE things to do and to not do.  And even more importantly, ways NOT to do what we do.  Maybe there are even ways to NOT do what what we are not to do.

Anyways, it is God working in us both to will and to do His good pleasure.  I'm not worried about anything, nor am I worried about anybody.

[Kat]

It doesn't matter what we think the kingdom should be like, it will be as God has determined and everybody that comes up in the first resurrection will be so overjoyed to be there. Every single person that is in that resurrection will be perfected from a lifetime of preparation, there will be zero, absolutely no worry/concern for who else may be among the elect there. Those there will be His chosen and will feel so blessed and honored to be there to do God's serve.

God is building/preparing the exact necessary combination of people now, down through the age, who will be more than ready and willing to work together to take care of, as needs be, the rest that will be raised into the world. 

Eph 4:16  from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

                                                                       Hi Doug


Thank you for further elaborating your point as it put so much together for me. I see how God talks to us through us as a body of believers.

I say that because some of the things you said were right on the money for me , I feel God inspired you to say the things you said to me because it was what I needed.

Thanks again Doug for your time and your help.





                                                              Hi Dave from Tenn.



What my meaning was about being lie to was all the teaching I learned from all the churches I had attended such as South shore faith ministries, the assembly of God, St. Coleman's , St Edwards, Calvary chapel and many others not to mention the religious station too like Dr Charles Stanley ,Frederic Price, James Kennedy Dr, McGee and many more.

All of us here at B.T. was taught false doctrine and now I find myself having to unlearn the false doctrine except the truth I'm now learning.

When I had first learned and believed Ray was right about there being no place of eternal torment I was delighted but as time went on I stared to struggle with the notion there was no hell. Now I'm solid in my belief that there is NO HELL.

What I have learned here at B.T. I will not let anyone take that from me but as Doug had pointed out I was misunderstanding how to apply the truths I been learning here.

You had also said some things too Dave that really helped my understanding out. I'm so thankful being apart of this forum, it's where God answers my questions through the believers here at B.T. and it to me is an awesome thing to behold.

Thank you also Dave.


Love and peace to all.