Just need to vent how about you?

[Dave in Tenn]

The house that's built on the sand has to fall.  There will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.  You're not going through anything that's outside the purpose of God for you.  But He doesn't leave us or forsake us even when it feels like He has. 

Keep going.  If you want to do good and not do evil, then that is a good thing.  There are more surprises in store for you, I think.  They will be also tailor-made for you in the details, but not uncommon for believers.  We don't grow up all at once.  All we are promised is a "happy ending".  I hope a good portion of it comes to you before resurrection.  Happy are the meek, etc.  Happy are they who read the book of this Testimony.  "Rejoice in all things...and again, I say rejoice."  Don't make me quote the whole Bible.      

[arion]

I'm not into this "fear and trembling" thing.

God tells us in Philippians 4:6 not to worry about anything. 

You may not like this 'fear and trembling thing' but it is as scriptural as the verses that you shared, unless of course you believe that some scriptures are true and some are not.  All these scriptures harmonize one with the other.  If we don't believe that then we are left as the various denominations fighting over what the word of God says.

Ray taught on this in the Nashville 2007 conference;


.....God puts us in the same situation, we have to live our lives. You may say, well I'll just kill myself. Not unless God wants you to, you can't kill yourself if God doesn't want you to. Everybody that ever killed themselves, it was after God said... okay, now you are going to kill yourself. 

He is in control of EVERTHING, through circumstances. He doesn't make anyone kill themselves against their will, no. But He puts them into situations where they can't tolerate life anymore and their own will becomes, I want to kill myself.

[Someone ask the question: Is that why Christ was always in prayer?]
Well yes, it's like the old saying; act like it all depends on you and pray like it all depends on God. That's the way you should live your life. He could not help but pray. 

What appears to be contradictions are not contradictions, when you have a higher spiritual understanding of what it's talking about. Let me show you a perfect example and it sounds like a contradiction, but it's not.

Phi 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Doesn't that contradict this whole thing... we're saved by grace and not of works? Now we're to work out our own salvation? What is that? How do you explain that "Of Myself I can do nothing" (John 5:30)? And He said "YOU can do nothing" (John 15:5), to the apostles. Then Paul says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Well it does sound like a contradiction. But read the next verse and He tells us why. "For" now that word always means 'because' or it's another word for because.

Phi 2:13  For (because) it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Some of you probably still don't get the answer, but it is there. "Work out your own salvation," is not the gist of that saying. He is not saying, work out your own salvation, period. No, He's saying "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, that's where the emphases is, on fear and trembling, not on working out your own salvation. 

You work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, why? Because it all depends on God! If God doesn't do it, it won't happen, IT WON'T HAPPEN! So we live in fear and trepidation.

I cannot drive down the street, being the safest driver that I can be and know that I will avoid an accident, if God has already determined I'm going to have one. What it doesn't mean is you can drive down the road foolishly... or you don't need to wear a seat belt... or close your eyes for a while... or something like that. But you do have to act it out. Why? You have to, He makes you. 

He made you come out of your mother's womb and He made you cry. Not that He forced you, but circumstances, He brought about all the circumstances. He made you cry, makes you grow and makes you fight with your kid brother. 

You do all these things and people reach a place where they get tired of it. So we have plays like 'Stop the world I want to get off.' It's like I've had enough, I'm at the end of my rope and it's the end of the line. Well it's only the end of the line IF God has determined it's the end of the line. 
If say you came to that conclusion at 8:30, and He knows you won't die until your 77 1/2, then you're not going to end it. 

That's where the fear and trepidation come in. It ALL depends on God, there's nothing you can do. But YOU have to work it out. YOU have to get up and go to work. YOU have to do all this stuff. 

Then you say I don't want to anymore, well circumstances make you. So you think, I'll just end it all... then your child comes up and says 'Mommie.' Now you say, oh my gosh I have a child, I can't kill myself I've got to live for my child. You see? So God makes you live this life. He makes you do all this, HE MAKES YOU DO IT. But not against your will. He puts you in circumstances and that's the only way you can go. The ONLY way!

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg34384.html#msg34384

[microlink]

I'm not into this "fear and trembling" thing.

God tells us in Philippians 4:6 not to worry about anything. 

You may not like this 'fear and trembling thing' but it is as scriptural as the verses that you shared, unless of course you believe that some scriptures are true and some are not.  All these scriptures harmonize one with the other.  If we don't believe that then we are left as the various denominations fighting over what the word of God says.

Ray taught on this in the Nashville 2007 conference;


.....God puts us in the same situation, we have to live our lives. You may say, well I'll just kill myself. Not unless God wants you to, you can't kill yourself if God doesn't want you to. Everybody that ever killed themselves, it was after God said... okay, now you are going to kill yourself. 

He is in control of EVERTHING, through circumstances. He doesn't make anyone kill themselves against their will, no. But He puts them into situations where they can't tolerate life anymore and their own will becomes, I want to kill myself.

[Someone ask the question: Is that why Christ was always in prayer?]
Well yes, it's like the old saying; act like it all depends on you and pray like it all depends on God. That's the way you should live your life. He could not help but pray. 

What appears to be contradictions are not contradictions, when you have a higher spiritual understanding of what it's talking about. Let me show you a perfect example and it sounds like a contradiction, but it's not.

Phi 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Doesn't that contradict this whole thing... we're saved by grace and not of works? Now we're to work out our own salvation? What is that? How do you explain that "Of Myself I can do nothing" (John 5:30)? And He said "YOU can do nothing" (John 15:5), to the apostles. Then Paul says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Well it does sound like a contradiction. But read the next verse and He tells us why. "For" now that word always means 'because' or it's another word for because.

Phi 2:13  For (because) it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Some of you probably still don't get the answer, but it is there. "Work out your own salvation," is not the gist of that saying. He is not saying, work out your own salvation, period. No, He's saying "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, that's where the emphases is, on fear and trembling, not on working out your own salvation. 

You work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, why? Because it all depends on God! If God doesn't do it, it won't happen, IT WON'T HAPPEN! So we live in fear and trepidation.

I cannot drive down the street, being the safest driver that I can be and know that I will avoid an accident, if God has already determined I'm going to have one. What it doesn't mean is you can drive down the road foolishly... or you don't need to wear a seat belt... or close your eyes for a while... or something like that. But you do have to act it out. Why? You have to, He makes you. 

He made you come out of your mother's womb and He made you cry. Not that He forced you, but circumstances, He brought about all the circumstances. He made you cry, makes you grow and makes you fight with your kid brother. 

You do all these things and people reach a place where they get tired of it. So we have plays like 'Stop the world I want to get off.' It's like I've had enough, I'm at the end of my rope and it's the end of the line. Well it's only the end of the line IF God has determined it's the end of the line. 
If say you came to that conclusion at 8:30, and He knows you won't die until your 77 1/2, then you're not going to end it. 

That's where the fear and trepidation come in. It ALL depends on God, there's nothing you can do. But YOU have to work it out. YOU have to get up and go to work. YOU have to do all this stuff. 

Then you say I don't want to anymore, well circumstances make you. So you think, I'll just end it all... then your child comes up and says 'Mommie.' Now you say, oh my gosh I have a child, I can't kill myself I've got to live for my child. You see? So God makes you live this life. He makes you do all this, HE MAKES YOU DO IT. But not against your will. He puts you in circumstances and that's the only way you can go. The ONLY way!

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg34384.html#msg34384

2Ti 2:19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20  But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21  If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. [/color]

Yes all is of God. We have our part and it is as God wills in us.
"God is responsible we are accountable" - One of my favourites from Ray.

[rick]

                                                          Hi Arion.


Thanks for your post, what a learning experience that was for me. No doubt being apart of B.T. is a great blessing for me, I'm thankful I did this thread as the understanding I received from everyone's responses help me very much.

Thanks again Arion for how you explained things I appreciate it very much.



Love and peace to all.   

[Stacey]

Hey Rick, I sure am glad you vented.  Thanks.

[Ricky]

Hello Rick, good post. I could vent, if I did, God could make Hell very real and just for me. What if I were to say, I cannot love God because I dont have free will. Who's fault is this mine or His. Everyone here would say its my fault, I would disagree. Bless you all.  Ricky

[Ricky]

This is what I believe. In order for a human being to truefully love God, he or she Must be sinless, Jesus was sinless. And being sinless is Impossible to do, no free will! ! Its almost like you would need free will to be able to change certain things in your life to have some kind of power against sin. If you were God would you have created life the way it is, the human answer is no.  I could go on and on.   Ricky

[arion]

What if I were to say, I cannot love God because I dont have free will. Who's fault is this mine or His. Everyone here would say its my fault,

Not so quick with the broad brush Ricky.  I think that most of us would think that it isn't your 'fault'. 

Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw [drag in the greek] him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you............

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Salvation is all of God and not of man.  We can't come to Christ on our own power, we can't love him of our own power either.  God holds us accountable for the actions that we willingly [in our minds] make but in the end God is responsible.  One doesn't have to be sinless to love God.  I'm sure you would admit that all the apostles loved Christ and certainly the apostle John loved Christ and they were not sinless....not by far.  But it wasn't until Christ gave them of His spirit that they could truly say that they loved him.  They thought that they loved him, at least up unto the time that they abandoned him in garden just as it was prophesied that they would. 

[rick]

                                                          Hi Ricky

There is so much I need to learn, so many things to understand but after reading your post to this thread I realize what I need more than anything else is to except God's plan, yes I don't have a choice in the matter.

When I was apart of Christendom I believed everything was up to me to get saved, I knew and believed in hell and lived in fear because of it, I could not stop sinning in spite of knowing sin would condemn me to hell.

Now being apart of B.T. many false doctrine have been dispelled from me and I'm learning God's truths and now know there is no hell. So I excepted there is no hell, I except I have no free will nor choice.

I'm relieved knowing everything is ordained of God and knowing that comforts me in a way that I never had all these years.

I'm not angry at God because he controls me completely and everything I had ever thought, did or said was what He intended for me to do, for whatever reason it was important for me to experience all I had experience.

A few weeks ago I had felt uneasy because all at once I saw everything as corrupt the government the religious leaders my own sinful nature and everything I watch on the news just got to me.

Then I did this thread because of these things I had experienced but after reading all the responses and learning from those responses I now know why God cause me to go through all those things I did.

Love and peace to all.   

[loretta]

Tks  Kat for your kind words of encouragement.  Indeed it is all thanks to our Lord Jesus that we will someday stand in the presence of God, as sons and daughters of God, fully made in his image.  I have been reading and re-reading this thread  as I am still struggling to fully understand this free-will thing.   I must confess that I am not a very prayerful person, so whatever changes that have been wrought in my character are a result of being purged in the fire, not in answer to prayer but by the purpose of his will.  The truth about the lof squares very well with my personal experience.  And so does free will .  In hindsight all the choices I made in life, the good, bad and ugly were not free at all.  I didn't ask to be here at all, nor did I ever desire to be in the first resurrection, I didn't even know about it till coming to BT!  So if it has been such upto now, doesn't it follow that I will not have a choice in the matter hereafter?  Ofcourse, God will not take me screaming and kicking into the his kingdom, in the first resurrection or second, but will give me a new heart that will pursue him and his righteousness.  And in this I rest. 

Reading Doug's  posts in this thread makes me feel like I've become complacent, that I'm not exerting my free-will, since coming to BT.  But I'm  not complacent and I don't have a free will. Rather for me, this is enjoying  the Sabbath rest after having strived all of my time in Christendom to achieve that perfection that is obtainable only through the working of Christ's spirit in us.  In the lof ofcourse!  I don't believe that  resting in the truths of free will and God's sovereignty, is adopting a defeatist attitude and here's why. I prayed as best as I knew then for a good marriage.  I didn't get what I hoped for.  Those days there was a lot of overcoming, there still is, but its more relaxed. I didn't pray to stay married for 16 years but God caused circumstances that didn't allow me to be divorced.  Am I happy? Not always.  Am I an overcomer. Yes!  Do I believe that God is working all things together for my good? Yes!  It is the faith of the Son in me and my faith in Him (the Word) that helps me overcome.  I don't have to work at it.

So how does this square with 1 Peter 2:11-12,

Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul.  Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.

  I believe that the answer is in 1 Peter 2:15,16

For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.  Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.

It is in recognizing that our real freedom is in submitting (no free will here either) to God's will. But we can know this real freedom, only after passing through Babylon, having strived in our own will to be overcomers,  which is not wrong per se. The beast as I am coming to see, not only does evil, but also self righteous deeds, leading us to believe that we have the power to save ourselves, to  be overcomers.

As I see it, in the OT, the law was a mirror. In the NT, the Word is a mirror, so in Babylon, when we're confronted as believers with the Word, we realize how unworthy we are and we strive for perfection.  It is only after experiencing defeat that God shows us the ultimate truth (free will and God's sovereignty) that we can do nothing of ourselves.  In my experience, God has dealt with my sins.  The sins I still struggle with I know he will deal with in his time.

Just venting.

Tks everyone for sharing on this thread.  I've learnt so much.

Tks Rick.  Like you I'm still learning and enjoying every bit of it!

[Kat]

Hi Loretta,

When I look back on my life, it's almost strange to think that God was always shaping me through the circumstances of my life (that lead to my making the choices I did), like you said all of them "the good, the bad and the ugly" to bring me to where I am today, but I know this is true.

I believe it was all needful, every single thing that I/we have went through to give us the knowledge from experience we need to make us who we are. All those things have created my/our character... our own personality from the environment and all the circumstances that we have in our life situations. The things we have experienced, that knowledge we have gained can vary greatly and creates the individual that we are, we're all unique. In so being I don't think we can look at things in the exact same way, yes we are unified by His Spirit, but still have our own perspectives.

I feel a strong need to strive to study and learn and grow in knowledge concerning these truths, others may have a more laid back approach. It's all good, if God's Spirit is working in us. Some of us are outgoing personalities with a desire to share this truth with everybody, I do not want to witness to the world around me and I don't think that is wrong, but I should not condemn other who may desire to do so. Because some are more like Moses and slow in speech, not so eloquent in expressing ourselves, not so eager to jump into conversations.

Exo 4:10  Then Moses said to the LORD, "O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither before nor since You have spoken to Your servant; but I am slow of speech and slow of tongue."

God had prepared Aaron to help Moses and with us there are a multitude of differing personalities and knowledge, we are not all suppose to be the same, it makes for a much more dynamic group. This is what is so good about the way that God is doing things, we are all looking at these truths coming from somewhat differing perspectives... I have seen how these differing personalities are very useful in helping/encouraging others, as it's easier to relate and help somebody when you have had a similar experience. We should embrace each others differences as long as we are like minded in these truths.

I guess we need to be more understanding of peoples somewhat differing styles, as long as we are helping and not hurting.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[loretta]

Tks once again Kat, for this new perspective.

I understand now that we all have our own unique journeys, trials and testing.  Within that we go through different seasons, of resting and overcoming, perhaps even rebelling.  Everything is orchestrated by God, designed and perfected to our individual strengths and calling, according to his all knowing wisdom and purpose.  I can't even begin to imagine the beauty and harmony that will be achieved through all these differences as the body of Christ grows and builds itself up in love.

Ephesians 4:16 KJV From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part , maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

[DougE6]

Hi Loretta

I agree with your last post wholeheartedly.  Clearly we go through various "seasons" in our spiritual life all orchestrated by God. As Solomon wrote "there is a time or season for everything" (total paraphrase) But I just want to reiterate that the New Testament was written to overcomers...those called and chosen to be with Christ as Christ subjects everything under His feet. The writings of Paul and Peter and throughout the New Testament has hundreds of admonitions to seek, strive, put off the old, obey, don't gratify the flesh, walk in the spirit..nothing in the writings imply a sit on our butts attitude.

Above there was a nice excerpt pasted from Ray. Where was quoted "work like it all depends on you but pray like it all depends on God"  That seems to be excellent advice. We are never presuming on God by always doing our best yet acknowledging in prayer and petition that it is all up to him. I have no desire to presume on God that something will get done if I don't do it. Kind of like Jesus in the garden attitude. Jesus went and embraced the cross yet while praying with all his effort if there was another way. I mean God does it all right? So why didn't God go to the cross and not Jesus? That question is ridiculous but that is the endpoint of presuming on God with tge attitude we won't shed blood sweat and tears in our efforts to become victorious because hey...we don't need to put forth the effort..that is free will...no it is not. It is effort and not presuming on God.

[Kat]

DougE6, I'm kind of thinking your are preaching to the choir here, I don't think any of us believe that we could enter the kingdom with no effort at all. But it does appear that you are stressing works a great deal more than grace... certainly the Spirit indwelling will create the right balance of works in those that are chosen.

Here is where Ray discussed this thoroughly in the Biblestudy "Do James And Paul Contradict?"

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.msg82512.html#msg82512 -------

"BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH"

In Ephesians 2, here Paul puts it all together for us.

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith (alone?)...

Is that what it says? That's what Martin Luther would have you think it says. That's what A. E. Knoch would have you think. That's what Dobson and Billy Graham and all the rest of these guys, the modern Worldwide church of God, would have you believe. No!

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that ('this' would be a better word)... 

Now I've always said 'that,' that being the faith. That that faith is not your own it's the gift of God. But I think it is talking about 'this' or 'these.'

v. 8  For by grace are ye saved through faith...

'This' grace and 'this' faith, both of them, not just the one, but both of them.     

v. 8 ... not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
v. 9  Not of works...

Here it is, here we get to bring it on down. It's "not of works," it's of FAITH. But it's not your own faith, it's this gift of God faith and this gift of God grace. That's how you're saved, not by your works. Not by works, because that is something you do. This faith and this grace, it's not yours, it comes from God. It a gift, that's not yours, it's God's, but He gives it to you. That's what is going to save you, not your own works. Your own works will not save you, it takes this gift of grace, gratuitous, free, favor, love from God and the faith of God as a gift to you. That's going to save you, not your good works, lest you boast. 

v. 9  ...lest any man should boast.

Then you would say, 'well I earned it, I did it, I deserve it, I did it and I earned it.' It's not of works. Now get the context here. Sometimes we read these verses and we don't put them all together in one thought, in one sentence. This grace and this faith of God is given to you as a gift and that is what is going to save you, not your own works.

v. 10  For we are HIS workmanship...

Now if you read that, for WE are His workmanship, well then you lost it. No no no, you've got to know how to put the emphasis on the right words. 

From Eph. 2:8-10, it's grace and faith from GOD, a gift from GOD, not of yourself, from GOD, that saves you. Not your works, this gift is from GOD, for we are HIS workmanship... 

What kind of workmanship?

v. 10  ...created in Christ Jesus unto good works...

Now are good works absolutely essential to this thing called salvation? Absolutely, you just have to get it straight in your mind. It's not your faith, it's Christ's faith, it's God's faith. It's not your grace, it's God's grace. It's not your works, it's GOD'S works in you. Do you see it? It's God's works in you.

v. 10  ...which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This is ordained, it's got to be. This is not like, 'well it's nice if you have some, but it's okay if you don't, because you're saved by faith alone.' No, this is essential. Do you see how he brings faith and works together? They are both essential, they just come from God.

But this idea that Paul taught faith and James taught works, is nonsense. If you believe that you can add the word 'alone.' It's not faith alone, it's faith and God working in you through Christ Jesus to do the good works that He's declared you have to do. 


          DID JESUS CHRIST HAVE ANYTHING TO SAYS ABOUT "GOOD WORKS?"

Two other important Scriptures. Did Jesus Christ have anything to say about good works or was He one of these faith and grace people like Paul supposedly was.

Mat 5:15  Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
v. 16  Let your light so shine before men...

Now He is talking to His Apostles this is the Sermon on the Mount, if you read my last installment you know that the Sermon on the Mount is for us. This is for us, His disciples.

v. 16 ... that they may see your good works...

Works of the law? It didn't say works of the law, it said "good works."

v. 16  ...and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


                                 WHAT DOES PETER TEACH?

What about Peter?  Peter is the one that teaches a different gospel? We already saw what Paul had to say about good works. What about Peter, did Peter have anything to say about good works? 

1Peter 2:12  Having your conversation (conduct) honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Peter also... "good works." Yes they talked about faith and grace, but good works, it's there, it's every where.


                              JAMES AN EPISTLE OF STRAW?

James 2:14  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

The heretic Luther called James an epistle of straw. Let me tell you something this is one of the most profound little books in the whole Bible. I mean you talk about somebody nailing it like James does, he brings in a physical analogy and the dispute is gone. He just nails it. Now notice this ..."can faith save him" that means belief, just a belief. Is a belief important? It's very important. Can it save you? Listen, we read by grace through faith we're saved, but not alone. Paul brings in the good works, that's all part of it you see. Now can faith save you? In other words can faith alone save you is what he is saying here. Can faith alone save you? You've got faith, can that save you?

v. 15  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
v. 16  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

But you have faith. But James says what good is it if you don't exercise it, see, what good is it? Will it save you? If someone is in need of something and you say, 'bless you my child, go in peace, be warm, be happy and healthy.' If he says, 'I could use a sandwich' and you reply, 'later dude'...

I just want to show you how you can tie stuff in together. Notice what he says.

James 1:27  Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
v

Remember we read where Paul talked about the weak and the beggarly things of the law and circumcision and all of that. 

Gal 2:9  And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
v. 10  Only they would that we should remember the poor; (then notice what Paul says) the same which I also was forward (eager) to do.

They are talking about these works of the law that profit nothing and what do they throw in there? Good works. "Which I was eager to do." They reminded us, don't forget the poor. There was apparently a famine at this time in Jerusalem and all Judea, maybe. So some of the surrounding churches, Gentile churches that were not in this famine, were to take up a collection.

1Cor 16:1  Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

You know lay up a store, so when we go up to Jerusalem we can take this stuff up to the poor Saints up there. So he said, "I was eager to do that," good works. It's Paul who uses the term, that we should be "zealous."   

Titus 2:14  ...zealous of good works.

That's Paul. Now back to James.

James 2:17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

So is faith alone a good thing? No, it "is dead." But we are told that James contradicts Paul. I get emails that say, 'Paul was a heretic. I mean come on Ray, you know he was a heretic.' 

I mean you can't get more... he gives you an example, he says I've got faith. He says, look if somebody comes up to you and says, 'I need a sandwich or a drink' and you say, 'well good luck to you.' He says how is that faith, will that kind of faith save you? 

James 2:18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

Man I tell you this James is a smart cookie. I mean he knows how to bring about an analogy or example or a way of stating it. He say, "show me your faith without your works" show me, if you have faith, show me. 'Well I don't have to show you, it's in my heart.' Did you ever hear that kind of nonsense. 'I love the Lord in my heart, what I do on the outside is none of your damn business. I have love in my heart.' James says, "show me."  Put your money where your mouth is, show me. 
v

Show me, that's what James is saying here. He said you "show me your faith without works," which he's saying, you can't do it... then he says, "I'll show you my faith by my works." I put my money where my mouth is, James says I do what I say, I not only talk the talk, but walk the walk.

James 2:19  Thou believest (Strong's 4100)...

The word is faith. There are two words, one is 4100 - pisteuō  and then we have 4102 - pistis. One is used as a noun and one is used as a verb. It's the same root word. Faith is a noun, I have faith 4102. How do I have faith, because I believe 4100, that's a verb. My faith (noun) believe (verbs).

v. 19 Thou believe (or you have faith) that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Wow, James doesn't mince words does he... He says, so you believe and you've got this uppity yucky lovey dovey kissy kissy huggy huggy faith in your heart, right? Well let me tell you something, so do the demons, so do the devils. Now he could have said it again, what does it profit them without works, because they believe? 

v. 20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

He does say it again.

v. 21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[DougE6]

Hi Kat

When I strongly emphasize works I am not saying that these works are not of grace. It is God's grace working inside that causes the works He wants done to be done. SO I think our works prove whether God's grace and faith are actually in us.  I think your excerpt from Ray is right on. Ray did not mince words in that excerpt. He made it very clear that works are a big deal.

QUOTE FROM EXCERPT
Man I tell you this James is a smart cookie. I mean he knows how to bring about an analogy or example or a way of stating it. He say, "show me your faith without your works" show me, if you have faith, show me. 'Well I don't have to show you, it's in my heart.' Did you ever hear that kind of nonsense. 'I love the Lord in my heart, what I do on the outside is none of your damn business. I have love in my heart.' James says, "show me."  Put your money where your mouth is, show me. 
v

Show me, that's what James is saying here. He said you "show me your faith without works," which he's saying, you can't do it... then he says, "I'll show you my faith by my works." I put my money where my mouth is, James says I do what I say, I not only talk the talk, but walk the walk.
UNQUOTE

Of course our faith is of grace, it is given to us. But if we have real faith, Christ's faith..we will have the works. If you have no works or no desire for works, or want to desire to do good works, or put forth effort for good works...I would say you do not have saving faith. After all, we are His workmanship by grace through faith to do the good works that He has ordained us to do.

Well a person might say..yeah but I believe in the salvation of all. I believe that there is no free will. Great! Now, is that a belief that you have or is it faith? If it is real faith, saving faith, and not merely some knowledge you have...then that faith will cause you to to do good works. Knowledge doesn't save, it is faith through grace...and I prove I have the faith by my works. Maybe I am preaching to the choir hear, but I really think that when James says "faith without works is dead" that is a very sobering statement.

[Dave in Tenn]

What works?  And "What works?"

[Dave in Tenn]

We can agree that a person with no works has no faith, but if a person had no faith, would he have no works?

[Rene]

We can agree that a person with no works has no faith, but if a person had no faith, would he have no works?

I don't know Dave, but here is a marvelous reply that Jesus gave to His disciples regarding works:

John 6:28-29 - " They said, therefore, unto Him—What are we to do, that we may be working the works of God? Jesus answered, and said unto them—This, is the work of God: that ye believe on Him whom, He, hath sent forth."
(Rotherham)

I found this reply to be quite telling.

René

[rick]

All this talk of works as if we have something to do with it , I see the Bible says that a man's works will be burned up but not the man himself.

What constitutes works anyways ? I'm serious, what qualifies a work so as to be called a work ?
When I read some of these replies I ask myself are these replies suppose to put one under the law?

Any work that I deem as a good work that is done by me will be burned up but any work which is done by Christ will not be burned up and I will receive a reward for that which Christ does in and through me.

I am only a vessel, you know the pot , I am being molded by God . Could a good work be considered just saying to someone ,have a nice day? Or could it just be listening to someone who needs to talk about something they deem important ? 

I am under grace not law, I see all this emphasizes' on works , sure James says I'll show you my faith by my works but who's works are they ? Are they James or Christ works through James ?

I think if God wants me to sit on the couch, can I do otherwise ? Or if God wants me to jump off the couch can I do otherwise ?

Is it not God who gives me grace ? Is it not God who gives me faith ? Is it not God who will give me works ?

I think to much emphasis on works is emphasis on law . Just my thoughts on works which I can not take credit for any work that is of Christ but that work I can take credit for is my work and my work shall be burned up from what I understand. 


Peace and Love to all. 

[Kat]

All this talk of works as if we have something to do with it , I see the Bible says that a man's works will be burned up but not the man himself.

What constitutes works anyways ? I'm serious, what qualifies a work so as to be called a work ?

The works may be done through us, but we actually participate in that don't you think? Paul gives us a very straight forward answer to what works are of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit.

Gal 5:19  Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
v. 20  idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
v. 21  envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
v. 22-23  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

mercy, peace and love
Kat