> General Discussions
Just need to vent how about you?
Kat:
Hi Loretta,
When I look back on my life, it's almost strange to think that God was always shaping me through the circumstances of my life (that lead to my making the choices I did), like you said all of them "the good, the bad and the ugly" to bring me to where I am today, but I know this is true.
I believe it was all needful, every single thing that I/we have went through to give us the knowledge from experience we need to make us who we are. All those things have created my/our character... our own personality from the environment and all the circumstances that we have in our life situations. The things we have experienced, that knowledge we have gained can vary greatly and creates the individual that we are, we're all unique. In so being I don't think we can look at things in the exact same way, yes we are unified by His Spirit, but still have our own perspectives.
I feel a strong need to strive to study and learn and grow in knowledge concerning these truths, others may have a more laid back approach. It's all good, if God's Spirit is working in us. Some of us are outgoing personalities with a desire to share this truth with everybody, I do not want to witness to the world around me and I don't think that is wrong, but I should not condemn other who may desire to do so. Because some are more like Moses and slow in speech, not so eloquent in expressing ourselves, not so eager to jump into conversations.
Exo 4:10 Then Moses said to the LORD, "O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither before nor since You have spoken to Your servant; but I am slow of speech and slow of tongue."
God had prepared Aaron to help Moses and with us there are a multitude of differing personalities and knowledge, we are not all suppose to be the same, it makes for a much more dynamic group. This is what is so good about the way that God is doing things, we are all looking at these truths coming from somewhat differing perspectives... I have seen how these differing personalities are very useful in helping/encouraging others, as it's easier to relate and help somebody when you have had a similar experience. We should embrace each others differences as long as we are like minded in these truths.
I guess we need to be more understanding of peoples somewhat differing styles, as long as we are helping and not hurting.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
loretta:
Tks once again Kat, for this new perspective.
I understand now that we all have our own unique journeys, trials and testing. Within that we go through different seasons, of resting and overcoming, perhaps even rebelling. Everything is orchestrated by God, designed and perfected to our individual strengths and calling, according to his all knowing wisdom and purpose. I can't even begin to imagine the beauty and harmony that will be achieved through all these differences as the body of Christ grows and builds itself up in love.
Ephesians 4:16 KJV From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part , maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
DougE6:
Hi Loretta
I agree with your last post wholeheartedly. Clearly we go through various "seasons" in our spiritual life all orchestrated by God. As Solomon wrote "there is a time or season for everything" (total paraphrase) But I just want to reiterate that the New Testament was written to overcomers...those called and chosen to be with Christ as Christ subjects everything under His feet. The writings of Paul and Peter and throughout the New Testament has hundreds of admonitions to seek, strive, put off the old, obey, don't gratify the flesh, walk in the spirit..nothing in the writings imply a sit on our butts attitude.
Above there was a nice excerpt pasted from Ray. Where was quoted "work like it all depends on you but pray like it all depends on God" That seems to be excellent advice. We are never presuming on God by always doing our best yet acknowledging in prayer and petition that it is all up to him. I have no desire to presume on God that something will get done if I don't do it. Kind of like Jesus in the garden attitude. Jesus went and embraced the cross yet while praying with all his effort if there was another way. I mean God does it all right? So why didn't God go to the cross and not Jesus? That question is ridiculous but that is the endpoint of presuming on God with tge attitude we won't shed blood sweat and tears in our efforts to become victorious because hey...we don't need to put forth the effort..that is free will...no it is not. It is effort and not presuming on God.
Kat:
DougE6, I'm kind of thinking your are preaching to the choir here, I don't think any of us believe that we could enter the kingdom with no effort at all. But it does appear that you are stressing works a great deal more than grace... certainly the Spirit indwelling will create the right balance of works in those that are chosen.
Here is where Ray discussed this thoroughly in the Biblestudy "Do James And Paul Contradict?"
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.msg82512.html#msg82512 -------
“BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH”
In Ephesians 2, here Paul puts it all together for us.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith (alone?)…
Is that what it says? That’s what Martin Luther would have you think it says. That’s what A. E. Knoch would have you think. That’s what Dobson and Billy Graham and all the rest of these guys, the modern Worldwide church of God, would have you believe. No!
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (‘this’ would be a better word)...
Now I‘ve always said ‘that,’ that being the faith. That that faith is not your own it’s the gift of God. But I think it is talking about ‘this’ or ‘these.’
v. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith…
‘This’ grace and ‘this’ faith, both of them, not just the one, but both of them.
v. 8 … not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
v. 9 Not of works…
Here it is, here we get to bring it on down. It’s “not of works,” it’s of FAITH. But it’s not your own faith, it’s this gift of God faith and this gift of God grace. That’s how you're saved, not by your works. Not by works, because that is something you do. This faith and this grace, it’s not yours, it comes from God. It a gift, that’s not yours, it’s God’s, but He gives it to you. That’s what is going to save you, not your own works. Your own works will not save you, it takes this gift of grace, gratuitous, free, favor, love from God and the faith of God as a gift to you. That’s going to save you, not your good works, lest you boast.
v. 9 …lest any man should boast.
Then you would say, ‘well I earned it, I did it, I deserve it, I did it and I earned it.’ It’s not of works. Now get the context here. Sometimes we read these verses and we don’t put them all together in one thought, in one sentence. This grace and this faith of God is given to you as a gift and that is what is going to save you, not your own works.
v. 10 For we are HIS workmanship…
Now if you read that, for WE are His workmanship, well then you lost it. No no no, you’ve got to know how to put the emphasis on the right words.
From Eph. 2:8-10, it’s grace and faith from GOD, a gift from GOD, not of yourself, from GOD, that saves you. Not your works, this gift is from GOD, for we are HIS workmanship…
What kind of workmanship?
v. 10 …created in Christ Jesus unto good works…
Now are good works absolutely essential to this thing called salvation? Absolutely, you just have to get it straight in your mind. It’s not your faith, it’s Christ’s faith, it’s God’s faith. It’s not your grace, it’s God’s grace. It’s not your works, it’s GOD’S works in you. Do you see it? It’s God’s works in you.
v. 10 …which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
This is ordained, it’s got to be. This is not like, ‘well it’s nice if you have some, but it’s okay if you don’t, because you’re saved by faith alone.’ No, this is essential. Do you see how he brings faith and works together? They are both essential, they just come from God.
But this idea that Paul taught faith and James taught works, is nonsense. If you believe that you can add the word ‘alone.’ It’s not faith alone, it’s faith and God working in you through Christ Jesus to do the good works that He’s declared you have to do.
DID JESUS CHRIST HAVE ANYTHING TO SAYS ABOUT "GOOD WORKS?"
Two other important Scriptures. Did Jesus Christ have anything to say about good works or was He one of these faith and grace people like Paul supposedly was.
Mat 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
v. 16 Let your light so shine before men…
Now He is talking to His Apostles this is the Sermon on the Mount, if you read my last installment you know that the Sermon on the Mount is for us. This is for us, His disciples.
v. 16 … that they may see your good works…
Works of the law? It didn’t say works of the law, it said “good works.”
v. 16 …and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
WHAT DOES PETER TEACH?
What about Peter? Peter is the one that teaches a different gospel? We already saw what Paul had to say about good works. What about Peter, did Peter have anything to say about good works?
1Peter 2:12 Having your conversation (conduct) honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
Peter also… “good works.” Yes they talked about faith and grace, but good works, it’s there, it’s every where.
JAMES AN EPISTLE OF STRAW?
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
The heretic Luther called James an epistle of straw. Let me tell you something this is one of the most profound little books in the whole Bible. I mean you talk about somebody nailing it like James does, he brings in a physical analogy and the dispute is gone. He just nails it. Now notice this …“can faith save him” that means belief, just a belief. Is a belief important? It’s very important. Can it save you? Listen, we read by grace through faith we’re saved, but not alone. Paul brings in the good works, that's all part of it you see. Now can faith save you? In other words can faith alone save you is what he is saying here. Can faith alone save you? You’ve got faith, can that save you?
v. 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
v. 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
But you have faith. But James says what good is it if you don’t exercise it, see, what good is it? Will it save you? If someone is in need of something and you say, ‘bless you my child, go in peace, be warm, be happy and healthy.’ If he says, ‘I could use a sandwich’ and you reply, ‘later dude’...
I just want to show you how you can tie stuff in together. Notice what he says.
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
v
Remember we read where Paul talked about the weak and the beggarly things of the law and circumcision and all of that.
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
v. 10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; (then notice what Paul says) the same which I also was forward (eager) to do.
They are talking about these works of the law that profit nothing and what do they throw in there? Good works. “Which I was eager to do.” They reminded us, don’t forget the poor. There was apparently a famine at this time in Jerusalem and all Judea, maybe. So some of the surrounding churches, Gentile churches that were not in this famine, were to take up a collection.
1Cor 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
You know lay up a store, so when we go up to Jerusalem we can take this stuff up to the poor Saints up there. So he said, “I was eager to do that,” good works. It’s Paul who uses the term, that we should be “zealous.”
Titus 2:14 …zealous of good works.
That’s Paul. Now back to James.
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
So is faith alone a good thing? No, it “is dead.” But we are told that James contradicts Paul. I get emails that say, ‘Paul was a heretic. I mean come on Ray, you know he was a heretic.’
I mean you can’t get more… he gives you an example, he says I’ve got faith. He says, look if somebody comes up to you and says, ‘I need a sandwich or a drink’ and you say, ‘well good luck to you.’ He says how is that faith, will that kind of faith save you?
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
Man I tell you this James is a smart cookie. I mean he knows how to bring about an analogy or example or a way of stating it. He say, “show me your faith without your works” show me, if you have faith, show me. ‘Well I don’t have to show you, it’s in my heart.’ Did you ever hear that kind of nonsense. ‘I love the Lord in my heart, what I do on the outside is none of your damn business. I have love in my heart.’ James says, “show me.” Put your money where your mouth is, show me.
v
Show me, that’s what James is saying here. He said you “show me your faith without works,” which he’s saying, you can’t do it... then he says, “I’ll show you my faith by my works.” I put my money where my mouth is, James says I do what I say, I not only talk the talk, but walk the walk.
James 2:19 Thou believest (Strong’s 4100)…
The word is faith. There are two words, one is 4100 - pisteuō and then we have 4102 - pistis. One is used as a noun and one is used as a verb. It’s the same root word. Faith is a noun, I have faith 4102. How do I have faith, because I believe 4100, that’s a verb. My faith (noun) believe (verbs).
v. 19 Thou believe (or you have faith) that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Wow, James doesn’t mince words does he... He says, so you believe and you’ve got this uppity yucky lovey dovey kissy kissy huggy huggy faith in your heart, right? Well let me tell you something, so do the demons, so do the devils. Now he could have said it again, what does it profit them without works, because they believe?
v. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
He does say it again.
v. 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
DougE6:
Hi Kat
When I strongly emphasize works I am not saying that these works are not of grace. It is God's grace working inside that causes the works He wants done to be done. SO I think our works prove whether God's grace and faith are actually in us. I think your excerpt from Ray is right on. Ray did not mince words in that excerpt. He made it very clear that works are a big deal.
QUOTE FROM EXCERPT
Man I tell you this James is a smart cookie. I mean he knows how to bring about an analogy or example or a way of stating it. He say, “show me your faith without your works” show me, if you have faith, show me. ‘Well I don’t have to show you, it’s in my heart.’ Did you ever hear that kind of nonsense. ‘I love the Lord in my heart, what I do on the outside is none of your damn business. I have love in my heart.’ James says, “show me.” Put your money where your mouth is, show me.
v
Show me, that’s what James is saying here. He said you “show me your faith without works,” which he’s saying, you can’t do it... then he says, “I’ll show you my faith by my works.” I put my money where my mouth is, James says I do what I say, I not only talk the talk, but walk the walk.
UNQUOTE
Of course our faith is of grace, it is given to us. But if we have real faith, Christ's faith..we will have the works. If you have no works or no desire for works, or want to desire to do good works, or put forth effort for good works...I would say you do not have saving faith. After all, we are His workmanship by grace through faith to do the good works that He has ordained us to do.
Well a person might say..yeah but I believe in the salvation of all. I believe that there is no free will. Great! Now, is that a belief that you have or is it faith? If it is real faith, saving faith, and not merely some knowledge you have...then that faith will cause you to to do good works. Knowledge doesn't save, it is faith through grace...and I prove I have the faith by my works. Maybe I am preaching to the choir hear, but I really think that when James says "faith without works is dead" that is a very sobering statement.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version