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[loretta]

Thank you Rick for sharing your personal story.  My teen daughter and I are going through a particularly hard time in our lives and she is questioning why.  I don't think I sounded half as convincing as I ought to, but reading your post has bolstered my beliefs.

Until then it's a process of beating your head against a brick wall.  With God's help I'm starting to quit the banging of the head because it hurts too much.

Yes, it hurts too much.

Thank you Arion, Kat, Alex and Claudia.  So much wisdom and harmony in your words.

Abednego, as always, you write straight from the heart.

And Pierdut, well, how much you've changed already from your very first post to this last one!  It's so refreshing to see how God is working in you, through you and for you. 

Romans 8:28-31

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Stay encouraged brother, God is not finished with you, and us.

Philippians 1:6

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


I can lift my head and look forward in hope.

[theophilus]

I don't think thinking...this was God's will for me to do this and so I had no choice...so I did it... is the productive approach.   

I think that you are still preaching to the choir DougE.  None of us here at BT, having understood and embraced the truths of the lake of fire, free-will and the sovereignty of God think this way - that I had no choice...so I did it.  Ofcourse we know full well that He is the arranger and causer of circumstance and that we are the learner and the repenter and the one needing discipline and judgement.  We wouldn't be here if we didn't.

We would still be in Babylon, but we're not.

You talk of productive approach and disobedient choices as if we are really free to choose.  I remember something that Dave said in another thread long ago - I don't try to conform my life to the Bible, but use it to understand what's happening in my life - or something along those lines.  None of us here are willful rebellious sinners using the free will argument as license to sin.  But looking back we can see God's sovereign hand in our lives working for our good.

as if we are really free to choose

for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:12-13)

We make the choices which God has willed for us to make. But if we say that we are not really free to choose, then I conclude God is forcing us to.

Philippians 2:18 Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me.

How dare Paul tell the Philippians that THEY SHOULD! Didn't he know that they could not FREELY CHOOSE to be glad and rejoice with him? Clearly the Philippians were not glad and rejoicing with Paul. Why not? Because God was at the time working in them the unwillingness to be glad and rejoice. But why would Paul tell them "You should"?

I think we should not only be LOOKING BACK. We should also be looking before we do the deed and while we do the deed. Is, was, and will be.

[Rhys 🕊]

I don't see a problem that Paul said they should. He was inspired to give them instruction on how to live and act so was only being obedient in doing so. I should be glad and rejoice too but I know that doesn't always happen. Paul also knew that it was God who works in us but that shouldn't stop you from saying what you have to say as God uses us to get His word across. Tell people what they should be doing but know it's only God that can bring about the change as He wills and Paul knew that but then he also knew he had a message to deliver so was being obedient in doing so.

I recall Ray saying too that if your involved in things that you shouldn't be doing then you should just stop doing them and that's good advice from him but he also knew that you can only be set free if God sets you free but nothing wrong with being told what you should be doing. Of course we fail but we need to hear what is right and what is wrong otherwise our message is just do what you want as it doesn't matter as God will do what He wants. Even Christ said if you love me you would obey me.

Rhys

[Rene]

How dare Paul tell the Philippians that THEY SHOULD! Didn't he know that they could not FREELY CHOOSE to be glad and rejoice with him? Clearly the Philippians were not glad and rejoicing with Paul. Why not? Because God was at the time working in them the unwillingness to be glad and rejoice. But why would Paul tell them "You should"?

Yes, as Rhys said, Paul dared to say what he said to the Philippians because he was INSPIRED by God to ENCOURAGE his brethren.  Paul wanted them to know that even if he was sacrificed (died) for the sake of their faith, it was God's will and therefore he (Paul) will be rejoicing at the Day of the Lord and they can rejoice with him.

Phil 2:16 - "Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

Phil 2:17 - "Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.

Phil 2:18 - "For the same cause also do ye joy, and rejoice with me.


René

[Kat]

Here are a couple of emails, Ray had a way about explaining these things, that's why he was the teacher he was.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2510.0.html -----------

The subject of the Sovereignty of God (which by its nature completely demolishes any such thought as man having a will that is free to operate independently of God) is one of those unimaginably simple Truths that most can never wrap their mind around.  I have explained it over and over and over and over, but few indeed could ever explain it.
 
The entire universe is under God's Sovereignty. NOTHING operates or works or functions or thinks or does ANYTHING independently of God and HIs Sovereignty.  Therefore, from this fact, we know the following: [1] everthing that has ever happened was according to God's pre-ordained, foreknown plan and purpose.  And we can look back and see what has happened realizing that all was in accord with that purpose, and [2] we can likewise know that everything that will yet happen will be according to God's pre-ordained, foreknown plan and purpose, but we CANNOT look forward and know what those things WILL BE;  we can only seen what HAS BEEN.
 
Therefore you DON'T KNOW what God plans for your son in the immediate, intermediate, or long term future. Hence, if you want God to answer your prayers regarding your sons future, YOU WILL  H-A-V-E  TO PRAY!! 
 
Don't try to second-guess God, now that you have a little spiritual knowledge. LIVE YOUR LIFE.  Don't try to figure out things that you can or cannot do based on whether it may or may not be God's will for this or that. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT GOD'S SPECIFIC WILL IS REGARDING THIS OR THAT, so don't try to live as though you do know.   Since Phil. 4:4-7 is rather pathetic in the King James, I will read it from the Concordant Version.

"Be rejoicing in the Lord always!  Again, I will declare, BE REJOICING!  Let your lenience [moderation] be known to all men: the Lord is near.  Do not worry about anything, but IN EVERYTHING, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, LET YOUR REQUESTS BE MADE KNOWN TO GOD [don't hold back by second-guessing God and thinking, 'what's the use?'] and the peace of God, that is superior to every frame of mind, shall be garrisoning your hearts and your apprehensions in Christ Jesus."
 
 
http://bible-truths.com/email14.htm -------------------------------

We choose all day long. God asks us to choose. The human brain has the ability to weigh data and make a choice. I nor the Scriptures deny this fact. What I AND THE SCRIPTURES do deny, is that man has the ability to make "UNCAUSED" choices. For that is what "free" will is all about--UNCAUSED choices, and I and the Scriptures both agree that this is a physiological impossibility. 

If something always MAKES OR CAUSES you to choose what you do, then you and your data-processing-brain are not "free" or out of the realm of "causality" to do anything, BUT what a cause made you choose. You can say the cause forced, made or soften to influenced, or inspired, but the end result is always the same: ALL OF OUR CHOICES ARE INFLUENCED, INSPIRED, OR CAUSED to happen by billions of circumstances beyond our knowledge or control.

Therefore King Nebuchadnezar was CAUSED to see that it is God and God alone who rules in the kingdoms of individual men and corporate men.  God said that it was HE, GOD, who CAUSED [MADE] the king of Assyria do the warring and slaughter that the king thought he himself had the ability to do.

Jesus said He could no NOTHING except what the Father gave Him to do AND TO EVEN SAY, and Jesus said that without Him, we also, CAN DO NOTHING.

Here is what the Scriptures say 

"For it is GOD which works in you both TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

No doubt I should be reading the E mails made available from Ray, so much understanding in them. Thanks Kat for putting them out there for all to read. 

Loretta recalled something Dave had said in a prior post and shared that with us all, which when I read it blew me away and its this    ( I don't try to conform my life to the Bible, but use it to understand what's happening in my life)
 
That one statement speaks volumes to me. 

Peace and love to all. 

[Pierdut]

..........

[loretta]

That's exactly why I am here, to try and understand what is happening in my life... Yet some had a problem with that; accusing me of having too many "I's" in my posts.  Well, excuse me, but the bible is only relevant to me insofar as I am concerned. Why would I care about any of this if it were not about me and my life?

Ok Pierdut, we'll let you have your pity party for awhile.

But not a day longer than the Lord wills!

[rick]

                                                             Hi Pierdut


You said ( Why would I care about any of this if it were not about me and my life? ) I’m not sure about that statement, To me its about God and what He’s doing, in my life, God does not love me because I’m something special on my own but only because He chooses to love me.

The entire universe proceeds from our Creator, God does not need me, there is nothing I can possibly do for God, there is nothing I can give God, he owns the thousand cattle on the hill he owns everything.

Guess what I’m trying to say is, its all about God , its about Gods love for us, its about Gods forgiveness towards us through Christ, its about what God is doing for us not what we are doing for Him.

All of us have to go through what God wants us to go through, I once heard that God sees us as we will be, not as we are, not sure how true that is. Maybe we human being who were created in vanity should remember God made us this way for a grand purpose and the outcome would not be so grand if God made us any other way.

Its better if one does not question God, for His understanding surpasses all understanding. I guess God can cause one to see their cup as half full or half empty but its all for a grand purpose and a beautiful ending for every human being that ever was ,is and will be till His 2nd coming.

No matter how cloudy the day may be , above the clouds is pure sunshine my friend and God is going to get us there , everyone of us. 


Peace and love to all

[Pierdut]

That's exactly why I am here, to try and understand what is happening in my life... Yet some had a problem with that; accusing me of having too many "I's" in my posts.  Well, excuse me, but the bible is only relevant to me insofar as I am concerned. Why would I care about any of this if it were not about me and my life?

Ok Pierdut, we'll let you have your pity party for awhile.

But not a day longer than the Lord wills!

That wasn't intended as any kind of a "pity party," I was just being blunt. If the bible had nothing in it for you, why care about it? It'd be like going to work everyday for someone else, he gets your paycheck but you do all the work. Would you still go to work? No, of course not.

[Pierdut]

                                                             Hi Pierdut


You said ( Why would I care about any of this if it were not about me and my life? ) I’m not sure about that statement, To me its about God and what He’s doing, in my life, God does not love me because I’m something special on my own but only because He chooses to love me.

The entire universe proceeds from our Creator, God does not need me, there is nothing I can possibly do for God, there is nothing I can give God, he owns the thousand cattle on the hill he owns everything.

Guess what I’m trying to say is, its all about God , its about Gods love for us, its about Gods forgiveness towards us through Christ, its about what God is doing for us not what we are doing for Him.

All of us have to go through what God wants us to go through, I once heard that God sees us as we will be, not as we are, not sure how true that is. Maybe we human being who were created in vanity should remember God made us this way for a grand purpose and the outcome would not be so grand if God made us any other way.

Its better if one does not question God, for His understanding surpasses all understanding. I guess God can cause one to see their cup as half full or half empty but its all for a grand purpose and a beautiful ending for every human being that ever was ,is and will be till His 2nd coming.

No matter how cloudy the day may be , above the clouds is pure sunshine my friend and God is going to get us there , everyone of us. 


Peace and love to all

Rick, even in your response to me you made my point: there is something in it For You, and that's why you care about it.

[rick]

                                                         Hi Pierdut.


Think about Rays detractors , I read the same papers they read and believed what I read where as others read the same papers of Ray’s that I read and they believed them not.

Why is that? Am I smarter than they are ? I doubt it, am I better than they are ? I doubt it. So what’s the difference then? 


If God keeps me in the dark on something ,then everyone can explain it to me a thousand times and I’m not going to understand. 

Its like Isaiah said ( but Lord who has believed our report ) faith comes from God, grace comes from God , understanding comes from God . You don’t worry over things you do understand , why worry over things you don’t understand ?   

You will understand what you need to understand when God says you’ll understand, and it’s the same for me and everyone else. 

Look at the incredible understanding God gave to Ray, I certainly don’t have that mans understanding, no where’s near rays understanding but look at the understanding I have compared to the understanding of Christendom. 

What’s in it for me is liberation from this body of death through sin and knowing one day I shall be perfect even as my heavenly Father is perfect.     


Peace and love to all. 

[Dennis Vogel]

That's exactly why I am here, to try and understand what is happening in my life... Yet some had a problem with that; accusing me of having too many "I's" in my posts.  Well, excuse me, but the bible is only relevant to me insofar as I am concerned. Why would I care about any of this if it were not about me and my life?

Ok Pierdut, we'll let you have your pity party for awhile.

But not a day longer than the Lord wills!

I cannot fault Pierdut for being honest and pragmatic.

[Dave in Tenn]

Pierdut, conversion is such a painful process.  I can't be 100% sure "this" is your time, but since I believe it happens to everybody, and that you aren't "here" by accident, it may well be.  One day the scales will tip and what is easy now will become more difficult and what is difficult now will become more easy. 

[Dave in Tenn]

Just a side-note.  I had to look back and see what I actually said.  For what it's worth, this was it:

"I've been benefited from Scripture more by having it EXPLAIN my life to me, than by trying to "CONFORM" my life to it."

Anyway, don't follow me...I'm just another guy on the internet.  The statement stands, however, as true for me.

[rick]

                                                                     Hi Dave


Dave , your statement ( "I've been benefitted from Scripture more by having it EXPLAIN my life to me, than by trying to "CONFORM" my life to it.)

when I had read your statement I had substituted the word spirit for explain and the word beast for conform.

That’s where it’s at for me, when the spirit ( explain ) does it in us, then the beast ( conform) works less in us, that’s the dying of the beast in us.

I’m seeing it much deeper than I’m saying it , I wish I were and articulate man so I could express my thoughts completely but you made the statement, I assume you know my meaning and the depth thereof .

I see God as completely sovereign in all things, nothing happens, that has not been ordained by God from the beginning .

God makes one vessel a vessel of honor and another vessel a vessel of dishonor and neither vessel has anything to do with what they shall be.

Every person be it a believer or non believer lives out their life with every deed and word given them by God through every circumstance they experience.

When Paul the apostle said with his mind he serves the law of God but with his flesh the law of sin, it really shows me the sovereignty of God in all things. I find sin to be a humbling thing in my life knowing I have not the ability to live up to the standards of God.

Sometimes I see a thread as a field with a bury treasure in it, known as truth. Jesus said if you know the truth it will set you free. I’m understanding for the first time in my life the freedom Christ was talking about was freedom from the beast deceiving me, thinking I am the ruler of my life, that I am sovereign.

Nothing takes God by surprise seeing where He knows the ends from the beginning because He ordained all things right down to the person who lights up a cigarette.


Just wanted you to know, I found a buried treasure ,thank you. 


Peace and love to all.   

[Pierdut]

                                                                     Hi Dave


Dave , your statement ( "I've been benefitted from Scripture more by having it EXPLAIN my life to me, than by trying to "CONFORM" my life to it.)

when I had read your statement I had substituted the word spirit for explain and the word beast for conform.

That’s where it’s at for me, when the spirit ( explain ) does it in us, then the beast ( conform) works less in us, that’s the dying of the beast in us.

I’m seeing it much deeper than I’m saying it , I wish I were and articulate man so I could express my thoughts completely but you made the statement, I assume you know my meaning and the depth thereof .

I see God as completely sovereign in all things, nothing happens, that has not been ordained by God from the beginning .

God makes one vessel a vessel of honor and another vessel a vessel of dishonor and neither vessel has anything to do with what they shall be.

Every person be it a believer or non believer lives out their life with every deed and word given them by God through every circumstance they experience.

When Paul the apostle said with his mind he serves the law of God but with his flesh the law of sin, it really shows me the sovereignty of God in all things. I find sin to be a humbling thing in my life knowing I have not the ability to live up to the standards of God.

Sometimes I see a thread as a field with a bury treasure in it, known as truth. Jesus said if you know the truth it will set you free. I’m understanding for the first time in my life the freedom Christ was talking about was freedom from the beast deceiving me, thinking I am the ruler of my life, that I am sovereign.

Nothing takes God by surprise seeing where He knows the ends from the beginning because He ordained all things right down to the person who lights up a cigarette.


Just wanted you to know, I found a buried treasure ,thank you. 


Peace and love to all.   

Rick, if it really is like that, then every failure in my life, every disappointment,  everything that I wish would have gone another way could not have. So my life could not have been any different; everything was inevitable. And I am referring here to the bad stuff as no one wishes the good that they've experienced to not come about. 

I am not sure that it is like that though. I was convinced at one point, but if that really is the case then I can't blame only myself, because it couldn't have been avoided. And that would also mean that my life will continue to be miserable with no hope of breaking-free from it.

What I can't make sense of is why would God lead me to see these things if I'm just a 'vessel of dishonor' created to live a horrible life?

Maybe we do have multiple paths in life, and I kept making the wrong choices? I just find it so unfair that something I wish could have been different could not have been, but was inevitable.  Then that leads to other questions.

Ray said that even a person that commits suicide was destined to do so because of the circumstances that lead to it -- it couldn't have been prevented.  So that was that person's lot in life. Seems so unfair. Some have it good, others bad, and that it was God who predetermined what kind of a life each person would have, without the unlucky ones being able to do anything about it.

[Pierdut]

Pierdut, conversion is such a painful process.  I can't be 100% sure "this" is your time, but since I believe it happens to everybody, and that you aren't "here" by accident, it may well be.  One day the scales will tip and what is easy now will become more difficult and what is difficult now will become more easy.

Dave, I understand what you're saying, and I don't know if what I'm going through is my "conversion," but it is very painful. It is also like a tug of war; one day I feel closer to God; I pray and try to do better. Stop doing some bad things, start doing some good things. Then I utterly fail and go back to doing bad things again.  And with me it's even thoughts in my head, or cruel words I say. Shouldn't "conversion" be like a one direction thing,  instead of all this back and forth? I honestly don't know.

If what Ray taught is true, then everything that is happening is according to God's preordained purpose and plan. And the outcome too is already determined -- whichever way it will go.

I need to think deeply about these things, as I'm not so sure that it is quite like that anymore.

[Kat]

Pierdut, you are only looking at how things have come to be to this point... you do not know what is yet to come for you are anybody else. The thing is I believe we are only in the first stages of God's plan... how can you judge God as "unfair" when you do not know what is yet to come?

Even if a person's life ends in this age as a vessel of dishonor, you do not know what God has already prepared for the ages to come. Judgment yes, but that is for correcting and cleansing... what about beyond that? Could it be that the more one suffers now, the more joy one may eventually feel later? Perhaps, and we certainly cannot limit God or think that this experience of good and evil does not have a good purpose.

You have reached a low point and beginning to realize man (you, me, everybody) is carnal and incapable of good, and to weak to resist sin. This hopefully is an end, of sorts, of this "old man."

Rom 6:6  knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.

Eph 4:22  For you ought to put off the old man (according to your way of living before) who is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
v. 23  and be renewed in the spirit of your mind.

We all need that dark backdrop/experience of trying to do good and failing, now that you know you can't save yourself God can show you the way of righteousness... why would you resist this, you do not know what your destiny is. This is a process, change can happen degree by degree, a little at a time. We may not even notice we are growing till we look back one day and realize how much we have.

Hosea 10:12  Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground. For it is time to seek Jehovah, until He comes and rains righteousness on you.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[arion]

Maybe we do have multiple paths in life, and I kept making the wrong choices? I just find it so unfair that something I wish could have been different could not have been, but was inevitable.  Then that leads to other questions.

I can identify with that.  I was always aware of this scripture:

Rom 8:38-39  For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


But, at the same time I know that my sins separate me from God.  I thought that although the above scripture is true that there was yet one exception.  The exception being that if I so something wrong or miss God in the process that I could separate myself from the love of God, thereby putting the emphasis on me doing it right.

What a wonderful revelation to understand that I don't have that power.  Nothing can separate me from the love of God and that includes myself and my own stupid choice that I make.  Your not going to miss God in the process and coming to the understanding that not even YOU can get in the way of his plan for you is pretty freeing.  Everything is happening for a purpose and a reason and you are right on time and where God wants you to be in the process.  Once you get that understanding it takes the pressure off of you,  Gods timing in your life can't be derailed.....NOT EVEN BY YOU!!