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Author Topic: No free will question  (Read 10637 times)

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Doug

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No free will question
« on: December 19, 2013, 10:36:26 AM »

When Ray was dealing with cancer he made great efforts to find a cure. He taught we should make effort like it is all dependent on us but to pray like it is all dependent on God. Why did Ray then say we should not vote? Yes, we will not change the outcome with our vote but neither would Ray's efforts change the outcome with his illness.

Doug
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Craig

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Re: No free will question
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2013, 10:47:53 AM »

I'm sorry but when you post saying that Ray said something please reference the area in question (email, article etc.).  The site has so much information and I am getting too old to remember everything.  Before I could answer I would need to see the reference to Ray.

Craig
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Kat

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Re: No free will question
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2013, 01:12:11 PM »


Hi Doug,

Well without going into exactly what Ray said or didn't say, I will reply to the general question you pose. Actually this question is comparing 2 totally different things.

Voting is part and parcel of the politics of a government, which is totally worldly/carnal in nature. To vote is desiring to influence how a government operates.

James 4:4  You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

Here is a definition of Friend - One who supports, sympathizes with, or patronizes a group, cause, or movement.
If we are to come out and be separate, why would we want to be involved/friendly with worldly goings on?


2Co 6:14  Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?
v. 15  What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?
v. 16  What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
v. 17  Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,
v. 18  and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty."


As for praying to be healed, that is a personal matter. Since we do not know what God's will is, it certainly may be for somebody to be healed as the results of a inspired pray request.

James 5:13  Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms.
v. 14  Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
v. 15  And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
v. 16  Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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arion

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Re: No free will question
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2013, 06:25:44 PM »

To me, things of this nature are pretty simple.  Since we don't know in advance what God's will is on every little nuance we do the best we can with what we've got and know at the time, and God will direct the outcome.  Otherwise....why would we even pray if the outcome is already determined?  The outcome is predetermined but we pray because we don't know the specific outcome.  God motivated Ray to do what he could with doctors and physical remedies for healing and God used those specific things to grant a longer life than what he would of had if he didn't do those things.  The specific actions Rays was inspired to take was the vehicle that God used to extend his life IMO.  In others, God may not inspire to take certain actions and the person will pass earlier than what he/she would of otherwise or, perhaps at various times God may do a miraculous healing.  I apply this to all areas of life the best that I can.  This is one area that I wish that Ray had done more teachings on.  We can almost get fatalistic at times because we know the outcome is already predetermined so we can be tempted to think why should we pray or take other actions?  We do it because God tells us to and it is the things that God leads us to do at times that provides the vehicle for God's will in our life.
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rick

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Re: No free will question
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2013, 08:03:08 PM »

                                   Hi Doug,

   
What I have come so far to understand is that God appoints a time for every person in every generation to be born and to die.

I don’t see where Ray’s life was extended by the choices he made medically as God appointed a time for Ray to die, however the choices Ray made brought him to the day and time of God’s appointed time for Ray’s death.

I don’t see how anyone can add or subtract one minute to their life, like Ray said, no one commits suicide until God say so.



Peace and love to all.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: No free will question
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2013, 08:40:43 PM »

Just me talking...take it or leave it.  I wish more people would vote, not less.  But not me. 

I believe in the absolute sovereignty of God, but I don't 'feel' fatalistic.  If "good" happens, I am of course thankful, as it is easy to be.  If "bad" happens, then I look for the "good" in it.  Hard to find, sometimes, but it's always there.  If I'm led to pray, I pray...even though I know He has already determined the answer.  Why?  Well, it might just be possible that my "prayer" is part of His plan to do something.  And if it turns out otherwise?  Then I know that I learn something, and since I DO, then I know that is part of His purpose.  "NO" is a perfectly good answer, when you trust the One who makes these decisions.

I get up and go to work, because I know that if I don't I won't get paid.  I live in a universe that mostly makes sense.  Cause and Effect.  Though I do not always know the cause and I do not always see the effect.  And I often see an "effect" that was not expected--and sometimes it is "good" and sometimes "not so much".  My "free-will" has nothing to do with all this.  Indeed, my WILL has nothing to do with this.

Ray said that it is in obedience that we learn the deeper things of God.  "Bad stuff" happens to "good people" and "good stuff" happens to "bad people".  One day we will all be Job, and not one of his well-meaning, religiously-minded, but clueless and immature friends.     

 
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Rhys 🕊

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Re: No free will question
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2013, 11:50:49 PM »

There are many countries where you have to vote like my next door aussie neighbours, not much choice there unless you want to break the law

Rhys
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Doug

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Re: No free will question
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2013, 11:11:16 PM »

Thanks to everyone for your insights. Kat, you really helped with the scriptures. Over time I had gotten caught up in politics but for the first time in many years did not vote in the last election. The decision was based on following the lead of God's spirit. I am not good at understanding scripture like the folks at BT. When things are explained using God's word then it clicks.

I really appreciate this forum and everyone here more than words can express.

Doug

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rumpelstiltskin

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Re: No free will question
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2013, 12:39:20 AM »

There are many countries where you have to vote like my next door aussie neighbours, not much choice there unless you want to break the law

Rhys

Hi rhys
what you say in your post is true, but that doesn't mean we all do. There's a large number of us that don't. Pierdut hit the mark on that one.  :)
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indianabob

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Re: No free will question
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2013, 02:57:28 AM »

Hi folks,
To me, decisions like this are a matter of attitude. If I vote I vote for the person who seems to listen and try to understand the job that they are asking for.

Another example: I reared four children and didn't believe in most inoculations being helpful or necessary. So my wife and I decided to reject the offer or demand made by the school because we wanted to put our trust in God.
After the rules changed and the State compelled us to accept the inoculation or not be admitted into the school, we prayed to God for understanding and that the inoculation, which was not desired, would do no harm to our kids.
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octoberose

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Re: No free will question
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2013, 03:06:11 AM »

Hi All,
 It's been quite a while since I posted.
 I understand what Kat is saying, but in my view if I am paying my taxes I am more of a 'friend' to a group or government then my vote. There would be no government without revenue. So, since I believe Jesus did not teach lawlessness to governments,  and I have to pay taxes, I go ahead and vote. God will do as he will do and I have real peace about it because I know he is working it out as He wills. 
 I told Ray once that we were about to be retired military and how was I to tell my husband  that I didn't feel good about accepting  his retirement from the government?  And Ray agreed with me that of course I would never tell him that. So every month a check comes in from US government to my husband and it is part of what we live off of. That is quite a friendly relationship . But I know that this money, just like the snow outside of my window and the blessings of the day and the hardships we face from time to time are all from God's hands and not really from any government or our works at all.
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Abednego

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Re: No free will question
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2013, 09:20:37 AM »

Thread locking in 3....2......
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Ricky

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Re: No free will question
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2013, 10:43:05 AM »

I am 57 and have never voted, not once and never will. Not my problem and never will be.
 Ricky
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Duane

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Re: No free will question
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2013, 08:24:15 PM »

I ALWAYS vote because it is a constitutional RIGHT that many people in many countries RISK THEIR LIVES TO DO!  We, Americans, take so much for granted.  What if we were NO LONGER ALLOWED TO VOTE?
We would cry DICTATORSHIP! UNCONSTITUTIONAL!  WHAT IS THE U.S.A. COMING TO?

EVIL PREVAILS--when good men do NOTHING!  PLEASE VOTE---Do you want illegal aliens to vote for you?
What about the "bought votes"?  We MUST do OUR civic responsibilities or we deserve what "THEY" give us!
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rick

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Re: No free will question
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2013, 09:51:23 PM »

                                                           Hi Duane,


If my understanding is correct and that God deals in the affairs of man and all is predestine, and no nation has its being nor anyone comes into power or authority without it being Gods intention, then voting is futile in that what Gods will is, will be.

These other countries where the people do not have voting rights get the government they don't want and here in America we vote and don't get the government we want.  Doesn't figure unless one sees God as completely sovereign.

It appears we have a runaway government however our government is right where God wants it to be and our vote cannot change anything outside of the will of God.

 Peace and love to all.  :)
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indianabob

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Re: No free will question
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2013, 10:54:33 PM »

Good point about it all being outside our control.

The politicians have to give us the illusion of control in order to keep us in line and paying our taxes, serving in the military, obeying their unreasonable edicts.
God wants His people to obey the government in power, not because they are correct or beneficial to the average person, but rathero because God wants us to have peace in our minds and hearts and that comes from the knowledge that God is in control.

If a man (Roman soldier/messenger) compels us to carry his burden for a Roman mile, do so with a smile and even offer to go another mile if you can. The lesson is valid. If you cooperate they will most likely leave you alone AND either way, God can make them to be at peace with you if God so desires. Matthew 5:41
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: No free will question
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2013, 12:20:11 AM »

Everybody is going to do what is most in their heart to do...and every work will be judged.  Beyond what Ray had to say about it, I find myself unable to participate because it only causes frustration and some level of anger...and that is also mostly what I see and hear from the more vocal proponents of this or that political leaning.  Enough finally is enough.  I'm not in their debate any longer.  The only "election" I am vitally interested in is the "election" that God is doing in individuals--and will continue to do until His Kingdom is ready. 

(1Ti 6:6,7)  But godliness with contentment is great gain.  For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

Some things are just for me, and I don't ask or expect others to either understand or do them.  Isn't that what the Sermon on the Mount was about--especially the parable of the speck and the beam?
 

« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 12:25:28 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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bob

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Re: No free will question
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2013, 09:48:10 AM »

I am in complete agreement with Duane on this.   Bob

1.2 Chronicles 7:14
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.   
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indianabob

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Re: No free will question
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2013, 10:08:16 AM »

Dear friend Duane,

I sincerely respect your view of how to be a good citizen in America or in other nations.
I used to feel the same way until I learned how the selection process works to fill the ballot in many locations. It seems to be all about being a member of the right party and having financial support. The vote is purchased with money from some source it would seem.

All of that is just my experience or opinion.

What matters to me in my particular case is the following:
I have come to believe that I am among the called out of God's church. I further believe that I may be one of the chosen (I'll find out soon enough) If that is the case then I also believe that I am called to be an Ambassador to the world around me, a light to them so to speak and not a fog horn blaring out the message in an unclear voice. (unclear to them)

There is more of the same that I could illustrate: the main point is that if I wish to influence others of my acquaintance it may be best to do it by my example of how I live and cooperate with others who need a better example, but in any case I'm not trying to impress others I'm trying to impress God with my growing in grace and knowledge of His spirit. I'm trying to store up treasure in the heavenly realm and not be a "men pleaser" and as you surely know, it ain't easy. (smile)

In a practical sense, since we who are called out and chosen are such a small minority that we never could change anything by our choice or our vote AND often I would not vote for either choice as presented, when I know (?) that they are both self serving and wicked.

Just my opinion and as you may observe this is just a quick once over and certainly not a detailed explanation.

Thank you for your consideration, Indiana Bob



I ALWAYS vote because it is a constitutional RIGHT that many people in many countries RISK THEIR LIVES TO DO!  We, Americans, take so much for granted.  What if we were NO LONGER ALLOWED TO VOTE?
We would cry DICTATORSHIP! UNCONSTITUTIONAL!  WHAT IS THE U.S.A. COMING TO?

EVIL PREVAILS--when good men do NOTHING!  PLEASE VOTE---Do you want illegal aliens to vote for you?
What about the "bought votes"?  We MUST do OUR civic responsibilities or we deserve what "THEY" give us!
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Rene

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Re: No free will question
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2013, 10:55:41 AM »


The only "election" I am vitally interested in is the "election" that God is doing in individuals--and will continue to do until His Kingdom is ready. 


 8) :)


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