Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[rick]

Does God know the beginnings from the end because God has this awesome ability to see into the future and knows what six billion people on earth today will do with their free will and what will take place with there free choice ?


Or does God know the ends from the beginnings because He has predestine everything that was, is and will be ?

Peace and love to all. 

[cjwood]

i think the answer is in both of your scenarios rick.  simple and short answer is God knows.

claudia

[lareli]

Is God sovereign... or just psychic?

I think the 1st scenerio is what most of christendom teaches. God didnt want Adam and Eve to sin. He knew it would happen but didnt control it so as not to infringe on mans free will.

[rick]

Ray had spoke about us not having free will or even limited free will, we all have a will but our will is always subjected to Gods will which I agree with Ray because as you know, Ray always used scripture to prove to his audience, the truth God has given to him.

I’m thinking that a play writer who writes a play can tell anyone how long the play will last, ( the apostles ask Christ when the end will come, and Jesus said, only the Father knows ) the play writer if you will. 

 The play writer can tell anyone every word that will be spoken from the beginning to the end of the play, thus, the play writer knows the ends from the beginnings.

The play writer wrote out every action or deed in the play, so the play writer knows the ends from the beginning within the parameters of the play as he is the writer of it.

I’m seeing God as the greatest play writer in the universe and every person that ever was, is, or will be has their script or role to play out in Gods play, the greatest play in the universe.

If God is sovereign, which He is, then I cannot be sovereign, or if I see myself as sovereign it can only be the beast within me deceiving me.

Today I looked up and saw three birds flying overhead directly above me, I asked myself are these three birds flying overhead by chance or were they ordained to be there?

If its God’s will that I’m to experience good and evil in this life , then God has to bring both of these experiences to me. If I have free will then I would used that free will to elude evil but gravitate towards good only.

Again, if I have free will then good or evil coming my way would be by chance and therefor miss out on what God had intended for me to learn.

God is sovereign however and has left nothing up to chance in anyone’s life from what I understand from Ray’s writings.

Are you, the reader of this thread getting this understanding from Rays writing also ? 


Peace and love to all. 

[Kat]

Hi Rick, I see what you are saying and I that is pretty much how I see it too.

To me God's Sovereignty doesn't just mean He has the power to control everything, but that He is the power by which everything can exist. Every breath we take is not just because He allows it, but He bestows it to us.

Absolutely everything there is continues to operate as it does because He provides whatever is needed for it to. Without God there is nothing!

Acts 17:28  For in Him we live and move and have our being...

Col 1:17  And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[greenef]

Yes!!

[Joel]

If we study on the potter and the clay Paul speaks of in Romans 9, it is easy to see just how sovereign God really is.

Joel

[rick]

The further I come away from Christendom and its teachings , the closer I come to the realization God is controlling every specific detail of not just our life but the entire universe. 

Ray spoke of a battle that was lost because the horse who rode the leader or commander had stepped on a nail and the battle was over.

How specific of a detail is that ? Talk about right down to the smallest detail.
We know because of scientist the earth is around 4 to 6 billions years old.

I wonder how many billions of billions of years God spent planning every little detail in everyone’s life that was, is and will be, before He actually created the earth.

Ray said in the beginning God created, the emphasis was ( in the beginning ) how long was that period of time ( the beginning ) ?

A great question for one to ask is, How does God know the ends from the beginning ? If one can answer that question, would that one come to the realization that everything one thinks ,does, and said was given them from above or predestined  ?

If God is sovereign then I cannot be sovereign, its one or the other, either God is or I’ am.
So if God is sovereign and God predestine everything, then nothing is left up to chance nor is there any such thing as luck.

If I get into my car and drive to the store, every movement my car makes, every right or left turn my car takes and every stop and go my car makes is being done by me. My car can do nothing on its own.

Jesus said, He can do nothing on His own, now this is the son of God saying He can do nothing on His own. Nothing means nothing not something. Christendom says when a person dies that person is not really dead but is in another place even though God says the person is dead.
Say wasn’t it the devil way back in the garden of Eden that said ( you won’t surely die ) yeah right.

I’m sure Christendom would also say that nothing doesn’t really mean nothing but means something else. Yeah right.

If Jesus, the son of God can do nothing on His own, then is there something I or anyone else for that matter can do on their own ?  I walk,  I talk and I make choices every day but who is the driving force of me ?  I can do nothing on my own! Neither can my car.

I’m starting to find some inward peace as my understanding of being predestine increases, I never made one uncaused choice in my entire life, so says the Lord.


Peace and love to all.   

[acomplishedartis]

...Therefore is useless to ask God to change future events. The domino effect started so long ago.

[rick]

                                                              Hi Mosies,


That’s my understanding also. So if anyone were to ask God to alter or change anything in their life that God planed out or intended for that one, and God does change or alter anything ,then it would be equivalent of God saying that person knows better than God Himself.   

One can ask all they want, not going to happen because God is perfect and being perfect, its impossible for God to make any mistakes, so what was ordained to be must come to pass. 


Peace and love to all.   

[Kat]

...Therefore is useless to ask God to change future events. The domino effect started so long ago.

But the thing is how can you ask God to change a 'future' event, when you do not know what the future will be? It may appear to be going a certain way, but that can change so easily from what we think it would be. Just a thought.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

exactly, Kat.

[HoneyLamb56]

I agree Kat:  we don't know future events and we can't change anything.  We can pray to change/alter a circumstance whether or not we get the result we want.  It's not that we know more than God but He already predestined that we pray about the circumstance (Ray's article on prayer).  Thus God controls it all.

I must confess that over the last 5 years I have questioned the Potter about our (my husband and I) circumstances as I cannot see the "why" (we gave up everything) as we feel things would have been more ideal left as it was;  Most times I have regretted the decision we made and want a redo.  Then when I obsess about it, I pray to be happy in our circumstance and in time maybe He will let me see the "why".  Who am I to question the Potter  

[rick]

I perceived that Moises was referring to any changing in future events at the time it’s taking place with pray rather than knowing what events would take place in the future. I believe God could or inspire anyone to pray that any given circumstance or situation would change on their behalf.

However I believe Ray is right on the money in the lake of fire series, all things are predestine. So if I have a situation in my life that is bothering me and God inspires me to pray that situation would change, Is God going to change His mind ? God does not change, God, the same today as yesterday and will be the same tomorrow.

If my situation does change its not because God change that which he had ordained for me, that remains the same but my perception has change.

So what I’m understanding is God inspired me to pray, I see my situation change and now I have more faith in God. Whereas if I did not pray, my situation would of changed anyways as all things are predestine but I would not of increased in faith without prayer.

This is what my understanding is from Ray’s papers, I’m 99% sure I’m right but a note to the reader, my studies on Ray’s papers is less than a year. I would also like to say what turns me on so much about Rays papers is that Ray always uses scripture to prove what he says is indeed gospel truth.

So if there is any error in what I said, its my understanding in question and not that of Ray’s.


peace and love to all.   

[acomplishedartis]

Yes Rick, that is what I meant. That paper was very good; If we always pray according to 'God's will', we will

always get what we pray for... because we know that whatever we get: is God's will--part of God's plan.

[rick]

Yes Moises , that is exactly how I understand it to be, praying according to Gods will.

So my understanding is as such, we only get our prayers answered if we pray according to Gods will, if I pray for 10 million dollars so I never have to work another day the rest of my life, I’m not saying God could not provide that for me however I don’t believe that is God’s will for me.

Now the prayer or request I pray was ordained from before the foundation of the earth, I like the way Dave from Tenn put it when he said, he believes ( life is more about dying than living ), how true that is.

It’s my personal belief that anything I would pray for, that would encourage my carnal mind would not be in the will of God as I am to be dying daily.

But if I should pray and God does answer my prayer then that pray would be according to God’s will and that pray would of been ordained from the beginning.

So to me, its not that if God answered my prayer that God had change any event or circumstances to accommodate me, it was ordained to be, but what else do I get besides my prayers answered from God ? I get more faith, now faith to me is simply trusting God more and more each day.

If God inspires me to pray any prayer and I see that prayer come into reality, has my faith in God increased ? Absolutely it has, God knows the ends from the beginning but I don’t.


Peace and love to all. 

[acomplishedartis]

So there is two kinds of God's will.  The first one is God's ultimate will and intentions, for example, God's will is to save mankind. EVERYTHING that happens good or bad to accomplish His ultimate plans and intentions is God's will.

The second one is His inmediate will, for example, God doesn't will that people do very weaked things.
However, people doing weaked things for a while is part of God's ultimate will--part of God's whole plan.

If I pray to God: 'not my will but your will (ultimate will) be done' respecting whatever. I always win! Because whatever happens is part of God's first kind of will.

[rick]

Yes moises, this is how Ray explains it in the lake of fire series.

DIFFERENTIATING BETWEEN GOD’S STATED WILL AND HIS PLAN OR INTENTIONS

Few students of the Scriptures have learned the truth regarding God’s stated WILL and His PLAN or INTENTIONS. They are clearly not one and the same. They operate completely differently for different purposes.

First we should understand that God’s will is used both as a noun and a verb. As a noun, God’s will is virtually synonymous with His GOAL. It is usually not too hard to tell in Scripture whether the word "will" is used as a noun or a verb. In the Scripture we just used to show that things only happen "if God will," it is used as a verb. And whenever God uses His will as a verb, then it absolutely will be fulfilled and carried out at the time and place that He wills it.

If, however, God is speaking of His will as a noun, meaning His ultimate goal, then it does not immediately come about in totality at the place and time that He states it. A perfect example of God’s will as a noun and it not coming to total fruition at the place and time stated, is in what is popularly called "The Lord’s Prayer."

"Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heave" (Matt. 6:9-10).

I don’t think too many would argue that God’s kingdom and His will has not totally come to this earth as it is in heaven. This is a goal—it will happen, just not at this time. And so man’s will is almost always at variance with God’s stated will as His ultimate goal for the human race. But God’s day-to-day willing of events to carrying out His plan is never ever contradicted or thwarted by puny man. Paul understood this principle perfectly.

DID PHARAOH HAVE FREE WILL?

We will now look at some of the most profound and yet most misunderstood and not believed Scriptures in the entire Bible.

"For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" (Rom. 9:15).

Just who is in control in this statement, puny man or God? Man’s will is not free to contradict what God says He WILL DO.

"So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy" (Ver. 16).

 might show My powers in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore


peace and love to all. 

[loretta]

I must confess that over the last 5 years I have questioned the Potter about our (my husband and I) circumstances as I cannot see the "why" (we gave up everything) as we feel things would have been more ideal left as it was;  Most times I have regretted the decision we made and want a redo.  Then when I obsess about it, I pray to be happy in our circumstance and in time maybe He will let me see the "why".  Who am I to question the Potter

Hi HoneyLamb,

You will have peace concerning your present situation only when you understand that the decision you took about giving everything up was influenced by your circumstances at the time which were ordained by God.

Ray explains it very well in his lof paper. http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html

God Almighty caused Joseph’s brothers to hate and desire to kill their brother because of a dream that would have caused any carnal-minded person to hate their brother under the same circumstances.

Joseph was the youngest of the brothers, so naturally all the other brothers would think themselves superior to him. Jacob loved Joseph more than the others, so naturally they would have jealousy toward him. Then Joseph tells his brothers of a dream he had where his sheaf in the field was standing upright and the sheaves of his brothers all bowed down to him. What audacity they thought of their little brother presenting such a haughty representation of himself. And then to add insult to injury he tells them of another dream he had where the sun [his father] and the moon [his mother] and eleven stars [his eleven brothers] all bowed down to him.

That was the last straw! They, Joseph’s elder brothers, would all bow down and worship Joseph, their little brother? Over their dead bodies. From then on they hated Joseph with a passion. And what caused this hatred? Why Joseph’s silly dream, that’s what. And just Who was it that caused that silly dream? None other than God. And yet, there are those who will insist that Joseph’s brothers did not need to do what they did. That their wills were ‘free’ to do good even though they were accustomed to doing evil under "the law of sin and death," and even though none of them were able to "change an Ethiopian’s skin or a leopard’s spots."

I am at a hard place relationally.  While I am doing everything in my might ( that's my carnal self at work!  ) to change my situation , I am not asking God to change my situation because I know it could go either way, according to His will (immediate), for His divine purpose (ultimate).  But because of the truths I have learnt here, I am trusting God with my situation, whichever way it goes.  I have peace about it because looking back the series of decisions that lead me to this hard place were not uncaused.  And I know that whichever way it may go, scary as it seems, I know that He has promised to never leave or forsake me.  Looking back I know he has been faithful over the years and I think of the footprints in the sand http://llerrah.com/footprints.htm.  Hark, he has carried me so far, why will he throw me into the deep?  Yes, sometimes, it does appear that he allows us to drown in our own sorrows and regrets, but He will rescue us in the end.  That is what I believe, that is what I trust, whatever the outcome in this age.

[acomplishedartis]

...Therefore is useless to ask God to change future events. The domino effect started so long ago.

I have been thinking on my own post respond for a while... and realize I was trying to say too much in such a little and maybe confusing phrase. I think that it's so much faster and easier for me to explain my self quickly when talking in person than posting.

Anyway, just in case somebody cares I will try to explain better what I wanted to convey, and add a few thoughts on it.

First my premise and from where I get my conclusions is ''predestination'' and ''our lack of free-will'':

So when I said that is useless to ask God to change future events, I don't mean that we shouldn't pray and let God know our requests. What I mean is that all future events are already written, and God is not like our Genie of the lamp who has to obey all our wishes. It must be that when we pray according God's will, we are preparing ourselves to be ready for whatever it comes, and to be able to thanks God for it. I once heard that God already knows what we need, exactly when we need it (He knows even better than us), so I don't think that praying and talking to God is useless. This reminds me when Jesus prayed, that if possible, God would take that cup from him, and then He ended saying, but not My will but Your will.
In deed is kind of scary to pray that way, because sometimes we want our will so bad.

This are some of my favorite verses and they seem to have the answer to why praying is usefull even so it will not change the predestined future that God have already planned to happen.

Philippians 4:

4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice;

5 let your forbearance be known to all men; the Lord is near;

6 for nothing be anxious, but in everything by prayer, and by supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known unto God;

7 and the peace of God, that is surpassing all understanding, shall guard your hearts and your thoughts [And what could be of more value than ''the peace of God'' in our hearts and minds?] in Christ Jesus.