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Author Topic: Destruction of the flesh  (Read 8837 times)

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microlink

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Destruction of the flesh
« on: January 01, 2014, 06:38:52 PM »

I have been re-reading Ray's Lake of Fire instalments on what is sin and Satan's role in particular. I have come across his reference to I Cor 5:5 pertaining to destruction of the flesh.
I have some questions/thoughts on this topic.

Here are the associated extracts from Ray's instalments in green:

God created the "WASTER," not the archangel who later supposedly became Satan, but from the BEGINNING God said He created "The WASTER" and He created him "TO DESTROY." Now then, WHOSE role is it to "destroy" the flesh of man so that the spirit may be saved?

"In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one UNTO SATAN for DESTRUCTION of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (I Cor. 5:4-5).

It is SATAN who was created from his very beginning to be "the WASTER to DESTROY" men’s flesh (carnal mindedness) so that they learn not to blaspheme (I Tim. 1:20). Satan started with Adam and Eve and he isn’t finished YET!
"Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom [their flesh] I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme" (I Tim. 1:20.)
"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh…" (I Cor. 5:5.)
That should be enough to make it abundantly clear as to where Satan’s domain is—in the flesh of man, on the earth.
SATAN—DESTROYER OF FLESH
Notice particularly the last two references. Paul used Satan to teach Hymenaeus and Alexander "not to blaspheme," and the man in the Corinthian congregation who was fornicating with his father’s wife, "for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

Paul used Satan for the "destruction of the flesh" of the fornicator in Corinth, just as God Himself used Satan for the "destruction of the flesh" in the book of Job.


I wonder about the meaning of destruction of the flesh. This phrase is used only once in scripture and that is in I Cor. 5:5. Ray does not elaborate on this scripture in the places I looked.

From Strong's G3639 - destruction is defined as ruin, death or punishment.

The word itself is used only 4 times in the New Testament:
1 Cor 5:5  1Co 5:5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Thes 5:3  1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
2 Thes 1:9  2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1 Tim 6:9  1Ti 6:9  But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.


Paul told the congregation to put this man out to deliver him unto Satan for the destruction of his flesh.

So what does destruction of the flesh mean?
It surely does not mean for him to be killed physically by Satan.
Does it mean destruction of the carnality of the mind? Very likely (Rom. 8:7).

I John 2:16 tells us about the 2 human lusts and the pride of life:
Lust of the eyes - this must be about sinning in the mind and not a physical act. Like Jesus described in looking with lust in Mat. 5:28.
Lust of the flesh - this must be about sinning first in the mind (where sin begins - James 1:15) and then manifests itself in the act itself. Isn't this what I Cor 5:5 is about.

So does this mean that his sin should be viewed as him being mentally tormented to recognize the need for him to destroy his carnal desire and subsequent sinful act and to repent.

Then why would Paul go on to say that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. Is this day of the Lord referring to the first resurrection? We know that this guy did repent and get back into the fellowship of the Corinthian church (2 Cor. chpt 2). Therefore he would have experience his purging fire for committing this sin in the current eon and perhaps be in the first resurrection. Or is the day of the Lord, the second resurrection for this guy, the resurrection to judgment? I don't know. I do know we all have our fiery trials as God's Elect.

About the Job story. When the hedge was removed by God, Satan got to him. Satan afflicted him with heinous boils resulting in great pain. Through his trial, Job came to see his sin. He was self righteous to the nth degree. When he finally saw his sin he repented in dust and ashes. Would not this have been a sin of "pride of life"? He thought he was just as righteous as God, or even more righteous. He felt God was unfair. This may have been not so much a sin of the lust of the flesh and the resulting of the destruction of the flesh than it was the "pride of life". The pride of life has to do with self-will (free will?). Thinking of ones-self more highly than we ought.

It is fascinating to see how God uses Satan to ultimately bring about good. Satan is a tool in Gods hands, created for the ultimate good of all of mankind.
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Kat

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Re: Destruction of the flesh
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2014, 10:50:08 AM »


Paul told the congregation to put this man out to deliver him unto Satan for the destruction of his flesh.

So what does destruction of the flesh mean?
It surely does not mean for him to be killed physically by Satan.
Does it mean destruction of the carnality of the mind? Very likely (Rom. 8:7).

1Co 5:5  deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Okay I think this verse as you say "does not mean for him to be killed physically by Satan," especially with the comment that follows, "that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." So I was looking in the translations to see how they have put this and the one that seemed to me to use the wording to best express Paul's intention here is the New Living Translation.

1Cor 5:1  Paul Condemns Spiritual Pride
I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you, something so evil that even the pagans don't do it. I am told that you have a man in your church who is living in sin with his father's wife.
v. 2  And you are so proud of yourselves! Why aren't you mourning in sorrow and shame? And why haven't you removed this man from your fellowship?
v. 3  Even though I am not there with you in person, I am with you in the Spirit. Concerning the one who has done this, I have already passed judgment
v. 4  in the name of the Lord Jesus. You are to call a meeting of the church, and I will be there in spirit, and the power of the Lord Jesus will be with you as you meet.
v. 5  Then you must cast this man out of the church and into Satan's hands, so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved when the Lord returns.
v. 6  How terrible that you should boast about your spirituality, and yet you let this sort of thing go on. Don't you realize that if even one person is allowed to go on sinning, soon all will be affected?
v. 7  Remove this wicked person from among you so that you can stay pure. Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us.
v. 8  So let us celebrate the festival, not by eating the old bread of wickedness and evil, but by eating the new bread of purity and truth.
v. 9  When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin.
v. 10  But I wasn't talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that.
v. 11  What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people.
v. 12  It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways.
v. 13  God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you." (NLT)

So that makes sense to me and if it is the same man spoken of in 2Cor 2, then this passage is even better understood.

2Cor 2:5  I am not overstating it when I say that the man who caused all the trouble hurt your entire church more than he hurt me.
v. 6  He was punished enough when most of you were united in your judgment against him.
v. 7  Now it is time to forgive him and comfort him. Otherwise he may become so discouraged that he won't be able to recover.
v. 8  Now show him that you still love him.
v. 9  I wrote to you as I did to find out how far you would go in obeying me.
v. 10  When you forgive this man, I forgive him, too. And when I forgive him (for whatever is to be forgiven), I do so with Christ's authority for your benefit,
v. 11  so that Satan will not outsmart us. For we are very familiar with his evil schemes. (NLT)
   
Hope that helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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microlink

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Re: Destruction of the flesh
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2014, 11:58:13 AM »

Thanks Kat,
So sometimes even a translation such as the NLT can bring out the meaning more clearly. We need not rely only on the "literal" versions.
The benefit of this event was not just for the sinner, but for the congregation as well.
I am still wondering about the "day of the Lord" timing for this guy.
Thanks again.
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Kat

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Re: Destruction of the flesh
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2014, 12:08:38 PM »


Well in the KJ verse 5 says, "that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" and in that NLT it says, "he himself will be saved when the Lord returns."

I do believe that is what "day of the Lord" is in reference to here, His return and the resurrection of the dead. In that passage it seems to be saying to remove the sinning person out of the fellowship, so that he will be brought to repentance of his sin and then be returned to the fellowship of believers. Therefore he would have overcome the sin, endured to the end and been in the first resurrection. This is just what I think this could be saying.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Ricky

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Re: Destruction of the flesh
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2014, 07:02:28 PM »

Would the day of the Lord be around or at he 7th trump, Rev. 11,15
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Kat

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Re: Destruction of the flesh
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2014, 11:00:57 PM »


Quote
Would the day of the Lord be around or at he 7th trump, Rev. 11,15

Rev 11:15  Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever ages of the ages. (ESV)

Hi Ricky, sounds like the trumpet announces Christ's reign - the day of the Lord.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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microlink

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Re: Destruction of the flesh
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2014, 02:39:05 PM »


Quote
Would the day of the Lord be around or at he 7th trump, Rev. 11,15

Rev 11:15  Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever ages of the ages. (ESV)

Hi Ricky, sounds like the trumpet announces Christ's reign - the day of the Lord.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Thinking about the Day of the Lord. We know that the 7th trumpet announces the return of Christ to gather His Elect, the first born. Will Lazarus, the friend of Jesus be in this first resurrection? Lazarus knew Christ in the physical. Christ had not yet died for the sins of mankind. Notice what Martha said:

Joh 11:24  Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

So it seems that after Christ died and ascended to heaven, Lazarus and his sisters were converted. Perhaps they were there on the first day of Pentecost and received the Holy Spirit. So that would indicate that Lazarus will be in the first resurrection.

1Th_4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Destruction of the flesh
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2014, 05:17:14 PM »


We know that destruction of the flesh is not literal. Every day, starting from the moment of birth, the physical body gets nearer to the day it will return to dust from which it is formed. The literal demise of physical flesh is guaranteed.

The soul too, with sentient perceptions of a person, also perishes.

So what are we really, while we are alive?

The idea that we are the doers of anything, is where the rubber hits the tar. Refer to Rays edification regarding the King of Babylon (The Myth of free will) who was not chastised for killing men, women and children and pillaging entire villages, but for his audacity to take the credit.

The destruction of ignorance is what is destroyed! be it by ruin as in the case of Job, or the loss of a kingdom  as was the case of the King of Babylon who's sanity was restored seven years later.

Repentance can not happen independently of the goodness of God. No matter the agony endured, or intensity of suffering, it can only be Grace that is, Divine influence on the heart, that heals and makes right what was wrong, setting the crooked paths straight.

 Arc
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microlink

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Re: Destruction of the flesh
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2014, 11:44:59 PM »

Some thoughts on Arc's comment on this thread


We know that destruction of the flesh is not literal. Every day, starting from the moment of birth, the physical body gets nearer to the day it will return to dust from which it is formed. The literal demise of physical flesh is guaranteed.

The soul too, with sentient perceptions of a person, also perishes.

So what are we really, while we are alive?

The idea that we are the doers of anything, is where the rubber hits the tar. Refer to Rays edification regarding the King of Babylon (The Myth of free will) who was not chastised for killing men, women and children and pillaging entire villages, but for his audacity to take the credit.

The destruction of ignorance is what is destroyed! be it by ruin as in the case of Job, or the loss of a kingdom  as was the case of the King of Babylon who's sanity was restored seven years later.

Repentance can not happen independently of the goodness of God. No matter the agony endured, or intensity of suffering, it can only be Grace that is, Divine influence on the heart, that heals and makes right what was wrong, setting the crooked paths straight.

 Arc


The scriptures tell us that a living human being consists of body, soul and spirit. So what is the soul? What happens to it at death? I Thes. 5:23 tells us that man consists of body, soul and spirit.

(KJV)  1Th_5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First - about the spirit. We can understand what the spirit in man is from a number of scriptures.

(KJV)  Job_32:8  But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

God places spirit in all living creatures. The spirit in man gives him the ability to reason, plan, create, love, hate, etc. It is his intellect.

(KJV)  1Co_2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

 And at death the spirit returns to God who gave it.

(KJV)  Ecc_12:7  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

And so the spirit is given to a person by God at the moment of conception (some say at birth). And at death it departs the body and returns to God.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[hr

Next  - about the body. The body is the physical man, made up of flesh, blood and bone. We see it as our physical appearance. People recognize us by seeing us in this way. We are recognized by our appearance and our unique voice. Example: look here comes Joe, or there goes Mary. Or I hear Jack coming around the corner.


(KJV)  Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


We have a form and shape. We are physical. when we die our body decays and we turn into dust (soil). The human body was formed by God from the dust (soil) of the earth. It is corruptible and at death, it decays and returns to dust. The flesh, bones and blood disintegrate. The body no longer exists. Its gone.


(KJV)  Gen_3:19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


The human body is simply a vessel to house the soul and the spirit.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[hr


Finally about the soul. What is the soul? This is most intriguing. The breathing man is a living soul.

 
(KJV)  Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Can a soul die? Sure it can. It most certainly is not immortal. The vast majority of nominal Christianity teach that it is immortal. Not true.


(KJV)  Eze_18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


BUT what happens to the soul at death?


(KJV)  Mat_10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


(Concordant Literal Version)  Mat. 10:28 "And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.


Can something which is destroyed, like the soul, be reconstituted? Destroy, perish and lost all are translated from the one Greek word Apollumni ( Strong's G622). It never carries the meaning of total annihilation or extermination. Gone forever. No. This is most profound.


Here in green is a part of what Ray writes in the article on "Hell is a Christian Hoax":


The Greek word "appolumi" has three basic meanings: "lose, perish, or destroy." Context can tell which of these three is most appropriate, however, context seldom defines the meaning or definition of a word. Here are a few examples:
LOSE/LOST from "appolumi" - The salt in Matt. 5:13, "lost" its flavor. The "lost" sheep in the wilderness that wondered from the 99 sheep was "found" (Luke 15:6). The prodigal Son of Luke 16:24, "...was dead, and is alive again; he was lost and is found." There is nothing "eternal" in the use of this word.
PERISH from "appolumi" - The Apostles were afraid they would "perish" in the sea (Matt. 8:25). Jesus taught in Luke 5:37 that new wine would cause old wine skins to "perish." In Luke 13:33, Jesus spoke of Himself when He said that a prophet cannot "perish" outside of Jerusalem. Jesus was that Prophet, that did "perish" - was crucified and killed IN Jerusalem.
DESTROY/DESTRUCTION from "appolumi" - In Matt. 2:13 Joseph is warned to take Jesus to Egypt, because Herod wanted to "destroy" Him. The Pharisees persuaded the Jews to save Barabbas and "destroy" Jesus (Matt. 27:20). And they later did "destroy"--crucify, kill, Jesus. In Luke 9:56, Jesus said:
"For the Son of man is not come to destroy [Gk: appolumi--destroy, lose, perish] men's lives, but to save them."



Therefore God can destroy the soul. But what happens to it at death. Well it becomes a dead soul. Can a dead soul be brought back to life? Yes, by the resurrection. Consider the first resurrection, notice what the Apostle Paul wrote:


(KJV) 1Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



The dead shall be raised incorruptible. The dead (dead soul) will be raised most likely from the place where the person died or was laid and will be raised an immortal spirit being.


(KJV)  Daniel 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


(Concordant Literal Version)  Dan 12:2  From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion



It appears that the soul will be raised from the grave. Just like the living soul is and invisible entity, so must the dead soul be some invisible essence. It is not the body which is resurrected (flesh which has decayed and returned into the dust). It is the soul that shall be made awake by God and raised to aeonian life.

Other scriptures on this topic of the soul worth looking at are Isa. 26:19, Rev. 6 : 9-10 and Ps. 146:4.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 01:25:04 PM by microlink »
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Destruction of the flesh
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2014, 03:52:46 PM »

There are several misstatements in this thread about body, soul, and spirit.

The following gives scriptural teaching about this subject.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11605.0.html
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Rhys

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Re: Destruction of the flesh
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2014, 04:42:17 PM »

There are several misstatements in this thread about body, soul, and spirit.

The following gives scriptural teaching about this subject.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11605.0.html

Good passage John. This part makes it quite simple to me and takes away any confusion in my mind:

In Scripture, death is called a "return" [Heb. shub]. Before we were born we had no body, no soul, and no perception of any kind. At birth God gave us a body, implanted to us His spirit, which gives the body perception (through the brain and the five senses). At death, we [shub] RETURN. The reversal of what happened at birth. The spirit returns to God (Ecc. 12:7), the body returns to the dust (all the elements of man's body are found in the ground or earth) (Job 10:9, Ecc. 3:18-21), and the soul returns to no perception again (the imperceptible or unseen-hades) (Acts 2:27 and Psalm 49:15). This is what the Scriptures very plainly teach: where all that man "is" came from, that's where all that man "is" returns to.


Rhys
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I’ve noticed that I have changed in many ways since Bible Truths and the forum and one of them is living life much too seriously.

Another one is learning to rest in God and truly trust Him.

I'm still a work in progress.

John from Kentucky

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Re: Destruction of the flesh
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2014, 10:37:53 PM »

There are several misstatements in this thread about body, soul, and spirit.

The following gives scriptural teaching about this subject.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11605.0.html

Good passage John. This part makes it quite simple to me and takes away any confusion in my mind:

In Scripture, death is called a "return" [Heb. shub]. Before we were born we had no body, no soul, and no perception of any kind. At birth God gave us a body, implanted to us His spirit, which gives the body perception (through the brain and the five senses). At death, we [shub] RETURN. The reversal of what happened at birth. The spirit returns to God (Ecc. 12:7), the body returns to the dust (all the elements of man's body are found in the ground or earth) (Job 10:9, Ecc. 3:18-21), and the soul returns to no perception again (the imperceptible or unseen-hades) (Acts 2:27 and Psalm 49:15). This is what the Scriptures very plainly teach: where all that man "is" came from, that's where all that man "is" returns to.


Rhys

It always amazes me of the gift God gave Ray of making difficult spiritual topics easy to understand.
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Destruction of the flesh
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2014, 10:39:43 PM »



 : http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,655.0.html -------------

"The consciousness is not in the body, and it is not in the spirit. The consciousness of man is in his soul.." LRay Smith

The Consciousness of God IS God, who never sleeps.

Ray hit another one out of the ballpark.
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dave

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Re: Destruction of the flesh
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2014, 10:24:50 AM »

There are several misstatements in this thread about body, soul, and spirit.

The following gives scriptural teaching about this subject.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11605.0.html

Thank you! :)
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Destruction of the flesh
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2014, 03:52:57 PM »



 : http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,655.0.html -------------

"The consciousness is not in the body, and it is not in the spirit. The consciousness of man is in his soul.." LRay Smith

The Consciousness of God IS God, who never sleeps.

Amen. Profound yet so very elegant!

Ray hit another one out of the ballpark.
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loretta

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Re: Destruction of the flesh
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2014, 01:27:15 AM »

Clearly, Ananias and Sapphira being struck dead was not the case of destruction of the flesh. Acts 5:1-11.  Peter said that they lied to the Holy Spirit. v 3. KJV

All sins are against the holy spirit of God. Ps.51:4.   Obviously there were others who also sinned, so why this special act against Ananias and Sapphira.  What was God trying to teach them that caused great fear to come upon the church? v 11.  Was the early church also in the wilderness at the time? Ironically, the wilderness church of Christendom today that uses this very example to teach about eternal hell suffers no such fear.

As Ray said, all scripture are spirit and life.  So what is the spiritual lesson for us here?  We, who don't fear hell, but nevertheless understand gehenna, as being a purifying fire.  We, who daily battle the flesh, but continue to sin nonetheless.  We who, by His grace, and understanding of the great spiritual truths, don't have a great fear of being struck dead in our tracks.

EDIT 25/1/14

I wasn't teaching anything here.  This is what I think and I want to know what spiritual lesson this has for us here at BT.

 
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 03:10:42 AM by loretta »
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microlink

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Re: Destruction of the flesh
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2014, 12:27:48 PM »

Just a few more thoughts on the soul.

I appreciate all the recent posts that have been put on this thread regarding what Ray has written regarding this subject

I also read an older thread on this subject that I never read before.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,769.0.html
 
It did not enlighten much.
Well I agree with what Ray wrote about the soul in some ways but not all. Of course the soul is not immortal. But there is more to it IMO.

These are a few of the comments I have difficulty with (Ray's comments in green):

Ray said:

Man is made of TWO components -- body and spirit.

Yes that was so in the creation of the first man, Adam.

(KJV)  Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

But after that person called Adam came into existence. He was body, soul and spirit. After that all who were born, were born with body, soul, and spirit. You, at conception had with body soul and spirit and were born with those three attributes.

The scripture below tells me that there are three.

(KJV)  1Th_5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Three are mentioned not two. Nothing to do with the trinity since that is an entirely different subject. Three does not automatically imply trinity. In the physical universe there are the earth, moon and stars (planets in there as well). Three things mentioned. There are other examples. Is this out of  context"? Does anything which has three components imply a trinity? I do not think so.

Ray said:

The spirit has NO CONSCIOUSNESS, not even in life. When a doctor puts someone under to operate, the person is NOT DEAD he still has his spirit, but he has NO CONSCIOUSNESS. We need a brain to have soul and consciousness. When someone shoots you through the brain, you LOSE YOUR SOUL.

LOSE means appoulmi as Ray has clearly explained.

Scripture says:

Mat. 10:28 "And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna

This scripture tells us that when someone kills (shoots) you do NOT lose your soul BECAUSE only God is able to destroy (appolumi) it.

When someone goes "under" on the operating table they lose consciousness but they retain their soul. And what about someone who is knocked unconscious? Do they yet have a soul? And sure, as Ray has correctly said, the spirit has NO CONSCIOUSNESS. And it is the soul that provides consciousness.

"The consciousness is not in the body, and it is not in the spirit. The consciousness of man is in his soul.." LRay Smith
(quoted from a post in this thread by Arc)

And so why a resurrection of the dead? Resurrection of what? The dead! Who are the dead? The dead shall be raised incorruptible scripture tells us.

I once was and taught believed that when someone dies, the spirit returns to God and in that spirit is a retention of all our life experiences. I was taught that our character is recorded there. It was explained like a cassette recording of our character. Today one would say it is on a spiritual CD or DVD. I no longer believe that. So why a resurrection from the dead?  And is Gods spirit so compartmentalized that He has a big spiritual library of each and every spirit of man? After all there is one Spirit and God is Spirit. His spirit is life and imparts life. Or is there something on this earth after we die that requires a resurrection? Is there a record "somewhere" of our character. It is our character , our stubble and straw in our character that needs chastisement, either now or in the resurrection to judgment. The dead shall be raised incorruptible.

At the first resurrection those of us who are alive shall be changed instantly from physical body, soul and spirit into a spiritual body and made immortal. And those who are dead in hades (the imperceptible) will also be raised to immortality as spiritual bodies. The dead rise first and those of us who are alive at the 7th trumpet, them first and then us in the twinkling of an eye. Then we become a spiritual body, not a physical body and not a soul which required the physical body to live.

All that are in the grave shall hear His voice. How can they hear unless there is something that God wakes up (through His Spirit) for them to hear. He has a voice that will be heard. That is real.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, ... And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (judgment).

What is the purpose of being raised from the dead? Could God raise His children to spiritual bodies another way? Could He make His children spirit beings without a resurrection from the dead? Probably. But He has chosen by His grand purpose for the dead to be raised (revived) from the imperceptible

We often look at Gen 2:7 as one of the scriptures about the soul (H5315 - nephesh).

Gen 2:7  end of verse ... and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living (H2416 - chay) soul (H5315 - nephesh - breathing creature).

Look at the way this same word H5315 is used in Lev. 19:28,  21:1,  22:4 and in Num 5:2, 6:11 and 9: 6,7, 10. Can Nephesh only be a living soul? Or can it be dead soul?

Selecting one of these scriptures as an example :

 Num 9:6  And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body (H5315 - nephesh) of a man, that they could not keep the Passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day:

The other scriptures referred to in Lev. and Num. refer to nephesh as dead or dead body. Therefore a soul (nephesh) can be either alive or dead.

And then there is the very interesting word in Hebrew H7496. It is translated by a number of scholars into different English words. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance is useful but far from being accurate on many words. Like Ray has said:

From Ray: DR. STRONG'S USE OF CONTRADICTIONS AND SQUARE CIRCLES

I personally use Dr. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. It is a most helpful book. However, when it comes to the major "damnable heresies" of Christendom, Dr. Strong plays the same game of contradictions and square circles, as do the pastors and theologians.


We can find that according to Strong's the word H7496 means:   "From H7495 in the sense of H7503; properly lax, that is, (figuratively) a ghost (as dead; in plural only):—dead, deceased”.

Also from —Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon) 1) ghosts of the dead, shades, spirits

It is clear that there is no consensus on this word by scholars. Translations like ghosts, shades, spirits, ghosts of the dead are worthless IMO. But it is helpful to see how this word H7496 is used in scripture and how it may explain for us more about this thing called a soul.

Here are the scriptures in which it is used. Job 26:5  Ps. 88:10  Prov. 2:18  Prov. 9:18  Prov. 21:16  Isa. 14:9  Isa. 26:19

Lets look at two: Ps 88:10 and Isa 26:19

(KJV)  - Psa 88:10  Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead (H4191- mooth - most often used for the dead)? shall the dead (H7496 rephaim) arise and praise thee? Sela

Young's - Psa 88: 10 To the dead (H4191) dost Thou do wonders? Do Rephaim  (H7496) rise? do they thank Thee? Selah.


And in Isaiah:

(KJV)  Isa 26:19  Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead (H7496).

(Rotherham's Emphasised)  Isaiah 26:19  Thy dead, shall come to life again, My dead body, they shall arise,—Awake and shout for joy, ye that dwell in the dust For, a dew of light, is thy dew, And, earth, to the shades (H7496) shall give birth.


Seems like H7496 has a meaning connected with those who are dead and in hades (imperceptible). Some may argue that all this is allegorical or metaphorical. So be it.

And these New Testament scriptures collaborate those in the Old Testament.

  I Pet 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (KJV)

Act_26:8  Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead? (KJV)


Act 26:8  Why is it being judged unbelievable by you, if God is rousing the dead? (CLV)

1 Co_6:14  And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. (KJV)

1 Cor 6:14  Now God rouses the Lord also, and will be rousing us up through His power." (CLV)

2Co_4:14  Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. (KJV)

2 Cor 4:14   being aware that He Who rouses the Lord Jesus will be rousing us also, through Jesus, and will be presenting us together with you." (CLV)

Eph_5:14  Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. (KJV)

Eph_5:14   Wherefore He is saying, 'Rouse! O drowsy one, and rise from among the dead, and Christ shall dawn upon you!'"(CLV)
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 11:19:01 AM by microlink »
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3 John 4 - I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Destruction of the flesh
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2014, 01:14:52 PM »

To be fair, scripture does NOT say that man consists of three 'components', does it.

Genesis tells us what a human is.  I can't come up with a "parable" of my own to describe the deep interconnected-ness of body, spirit and the resultant soul.  But I can refer to what Jesus said about the Father, Himself, and us.  The Father is in Him, He is in the Father and we are in Him.  Scripture is full of statements that the Father does/did/, the Son does/did/said, and we do/did/say/said.  Yet would I say that these are three "components" that can act independently of each other?  I used to think that, but no longer.

Is it any stretch for me then to say that the Spirit does/did/said, the soul does/did/said, or the body does/did/said this that or the other?  Not for me, and apparently not for Scripture.

If we're listing 'components', don't forget the Spirit of God, the Mind of Christ, and the mind and heart of man.  If any of those do/speak/act independently, then all is confusion. 
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 03:41:29 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

microlink

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Re: Destruction of the flesh
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2014, 11:20:16 AM »


Psalms 119:160 The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian." (CLV)


2Ti_3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (KJV)

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3 John 4 - I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

se7en

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Re: Destruction of the flesh
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2014, 02:21:01 PM »

Beautiful thread guys, love this discussion.

microlink, did we answer "the day of the Lord" question you had yet? I don't think anyone came right out and said what it is. I think we got to talking about the "what man is made of" aspect of the question. Going to give my tidbit for what the "day of the Lord" is...

We can't forget....

Mat 24:35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Rev 1:3  Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

Rev 22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


We all know this, but it's important to be reminded of these words because "the day of the Lord" is judgement day. It's the age/time in evey person's life that Christ comes to reveal Himself.

John was on the island of Patmos when he had the visions for revelation, what did he say?....

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and,“What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

The spirit is Christ, the truth. His words are spirit and life. When He arrives to each of us revealing himself to us, it is "The day of the Lord". Judgement day... grace and truth being revealed to us.

So John was in the Word (in the Spirit) on the Lord's Day (the day/age/time of judgment)....

And What did the Word show John?  The whole book of revelation.... judgement.... grace... truth.  It's all the same :)

We will all go through "The day of the Lord" at our appointed time.

You will hear and see tons of churchy commentary about "the lords day" being that day of rest one time of week mumbo jumbo... but now that Christ has revealed Himself to me, I'm constantly at rest. NOW is judgment on the house of God.

The world wants to avoid judgment at all costs, but avoiding judgment is neither possible or something to be desired.

I love it :)

I hope that helped!
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~Se7en
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