lake of fire/second dead...

[Dave in Tenn]

That too, my friend.  I've missed your company here, A. 

My goodness, if we can't talk about THIS, what can we talk about?    

[Kat]

Hi Antaiwan, good to hear from you. I think I have a little bit different take on this. Yes we will continue to learn and grow in knowledge always, but when resurrected into a glorious spiritual body the elect will become 'one' with God. So from then on the Holy Spirit will be indwelling in the elect in full power, not just an earnest like now. Just as Christ could do no wrong and always knew and preformed the will of the Father, so will the elect.

John 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease.

The elect will have lost the carnal flesh, decreased completely, and will be perfectly in tune, one, with God. Of course there will be much the elect will come to realize, but not by their own strength, we are nothing on our own, remember He called out the "God has chosen the base things of the world... so that no flesh should glory in His presence" (1 Cor 1:28-29). They will not function as individuals, trying to figure out what they should do, they will be ONE with God and will do His will perfectly.

John 17:22  And I have given them the glory which You have given Me, that they may be one, even as We are one,
v. 23  I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me.

When you look at Christ returning to earth with His army, they will not be incompetent in any way at all. Christ and the elect will take this world by storm and turn everything on it's ear.

Rev 19:11  And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war.

v. 14  And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
v. 15  And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God.

The elect will not need to learn how to rule, the Spirit of God working in them will lead them in everything they do.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

A link to the study Akira mentioned...at least I think it is this one:

http://bible-truths.com/video/WhereGodsKnowledgeL.wmv  This is a video file.

Paul said:

Rom 7:18-25  ...for I have known that there doth not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh, good: for to will is present with me, and to work that which is right I do not find, for the good that I will, I do not; but the evil that I do not will, this I practise.  And if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it, but the sin that is dwelling in me.

I find, then, the law, that when I desire to do what is right, with me the evil is present, for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man, and I behold another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin that is in my members.  A wretched man I am! Who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?

I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord...


Having experienced this failure and frustration NOT to be able to "DO the GOOD he would", I reckon that Paul is saying once he is "delivered out of the body of this death" in RESURRECTION, he WILL be able to do the Good that's is in his or her mind to do without failure and frustration.  The same Jesus Christ our Lord who made him an overcomer in his life will make him an overcomer over this body and death itself.

Sin is more than a few bad habits to me.  Paul's life was exemplary.  But he did have to suffer (albeit with joy in faith at his suffering), and the beginning of his suffering was right at the point of his conversion.

Sounds mighty familiar to me.

[Akira329]

I missed being here and talking about this!

Kat I don't disagree with you. It just seems that its about time, a new environment and new abilities. Is anything really automatic not learned?

Sure the spirit will guide us into all things but I doubt half prepared for the battle. I guess I think this way because of this question:

What does being in a spiritual body entail?
Will the same knowledge and understanding be imparted to me that Christ has?
Also what Dave mentioned is noteworthy,
Do giving up habits make us worthy to rule in the kingdom?

These attributes of a spiritual body that Ray mentions are also worthy to note:
Taken from 1 Corinthians 15
INCORRUPTIBILITY, UNENDING EXISTENCE, GENUINENESS, IMMORTALITY, INCORRUPTION, SINCERITY, GLORY (AS VERY APPARENT GLORY), DIGNITY, GLORY, GLORIOUS, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP, FORCE, MIRACULOUS POWER, ABILITY, ABUNDANCE, MIGHT, MIGHTY, WORKER OF MIRACLES, POWER, STRENGTH,  ('VIOLENCE' ONLY WHEN REFERENCING AN CARNAL PERSON), MIGHTY (WONDERFUL) WORK, NON-CARNAL, ETHEREAL, SPIRIT, DIVINELY, SUPER NATURAL, REGENERATE, RELIGIOUS, SPIRITUAL
Its hard for me to believe I will possess a number of these the day of my spiritual birth.

Also Dave, that was the teaching I was eluding too. Ray asked what did Jesus do to gain his glory?
I think this is what Ray wanted to find out about the Father and Son. He wanted more to understand the relationship between them.
Will we have to do a little more suffering? I don't know but makes sense.

[Rene]

These attributes of a spiritual body that Ray mentions are also worthy to note:
Taken from 1 Corinthians 15
INCORRUPTIBILITY, UNENDING EXISTENCE, GENUINENESS, IMMORTALITY, INCORRUPTION, SINCERITY, GLORY (AS VERY APPARENT GLORY), DIGNITY, GLORY, GLORIOUS, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP, FORCE, MIRACULOUS POWER, ABILITY, ABUNDANCE, MIGHT, MIGHTY, WORKER OF MIRACLES, POWER, STRENGTH,  ('VIOLENCE' ONLY WHEN REFERENCING AN CARNAL PERSON), MIGHTY (WONDERFUL) WORK, NON-CARNAL, ETHEREAL, SPIRIT, DIVINELY, SUPER NATURAL, REGENERATE, RELIGIOUS, SPIRITUAL
Its hard for me to believe I will possess a number of these the day of my spiritual birth.

Antaiwan,

The very traits you listed, I believe God's Elect will possess upon their resurrection.  Do not underestimate the power of this transformation from "flesh and blood" to a "spiritual being."  The scriptures tell us that those who inherit God's Kingdom (His Elect) will be glorified, raised incorruptible, immortal, and conformed to the image of Christ.

Here are just a few scriptures, but there are many more:

1Cor.15:52-53 - "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet; for it shall sound, and, the dead, shall be raised incorruptible, and we, shall be changed. For this corruptible must needs clothe itself with incorruptibility, and this mortal, clothe itself with immortality.

Phil.3:21 - "Who will transfigure our humbled body into conformity with His glorified body, according to the energy wherewith he is able even to subdue, unto himself, all things."

Romans 8:29 - "For, whom he fore-approved, he also fore-appointed to be conformed unto the image of His Son, that he might be firstborn among many brethren,"

[Kat]

Well Antaiwan, to me it is not a question of the elect developing the ability to rule the world with Christ now or later... How could they ever hope to develop such an ability (the quality of being able: power, skill) accept it is given to them, a gift, by/through Christ? Isn't everything we have a gift from God.

But I think I know what you are saying... won't the elect have to learn how to rule? I really don't think that's how it works.

1Peter 4:11  If anyone speaks, let it be as the words of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as of the ability which God gives, so that God may be glorified in all things through Jesus Christ, to whom is the glory, and the might forever and ever. Amen.

When the elect rule it will be to the glory of God 'through' Jesus Christ, the person is not able to bring any ability, power or even knowledge into the equation. This life is to gain a backdrop from this experience we are having in this physical life, for our own understanding and so we relate to the people to be ruled in the next age. We are gaining a knowledge of how good and evil works and the consequences, learning humility, etc. These things are the basics we need, but I think it's all God needs to use the elect to do the work He desires to do 'through' them in the next age.

Yes they will keep their personality, He is creating us all into unique individuals, I believe that is an important part of what He is accomplishing with the human race. To think that being 'one' with God is dissolving into a single all powerful entity is entirely wrong, and totally nullifies this individuality that God is accomplishing in us in this life.

But just as Christ could do nothing of His own self, neither can the elect do anything without Christ. EVERYTHING the elect do when ruling is to the glory of God, and His work in/through them will be perfect, as they will have been perfected in resurrection. That's what it means by, " He must increase, but I must decrease." We must release all of this carnality - enmity against God, that will only happen at resurrection into spirit.

John 5:30  I can do nothing of My own self. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of the Father who has sent Me.

John 15:5  I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Maybe it's a little hard to face the idea that we have to release or have all of our 'own' will (actually carnality) removed, after all that's all we know right now. But when God abides in us it full power, I do not think we can comprehend how much of a glorious thing that will be.

1John 4:16  And we have known and believed the love that God has in us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
v. 17  In this is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, that as He is, so also we are in this world.

1Cor 2:9  But as it is written, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard," nor has it entered into the heart of man, "the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

Antaiwan, I brought up the thing about 'bad habits' to try to shake loose the idea from the understanding of that scripture that Paul is talking about his 'bad habits'. 

I think it's a given that the elect are not going to rule with a WILL to do evil, but with a WILL to do good.  That's a will subject to Sovereign God, and with the character-traits of God.  According to Paul, he had a vision of the seventh heaven.  Me? I don't even know what that means...but I strongly suspect it is far, far beyond the christian heaven of hard rock candy mountain and an eternity of playing golf with Uncle Bony.  He said of his vision that it was 'unlawful' or 'inexpedient' to utter.  He endured inordinate blows to keep him humble over what he had been shown. 

Now, Paul had not just THIS vision, but a whole boatload of deep spiritual truths.  He did his utmost to preach them, LIVE THEM, and protect them.  But he could not do ALL that was in his heart and mind to do.  Why not?  Because 'falling short' is what we do.  It ain't always gonna be this way.

Ray isn't a bible character, so maybe there's something to learn from him as well without theological baggage.  Ray had a wealth of spiritual truths (gathered not just from study, but from the life experiences which the Lord put him through) and did his utmost to teach them, live them, and protect them.  But you don't have to go very far reading in the email section or sometimes on the forum how 'exceedingly difficult' (the point of impossibility) it was for Ray to 'do the good which he willed/wanted to' for any number of reasons...not least of which is that the Lord Himself must open/unclose eyes and give understanding.

That's the 'phenomenon' I think Paul is talking about, at least the major part of it.  I could use my own self as a small example, except the will/desire to do good is not always in me, and neither is the will/desire to not do evil.  It ain't always gonna be this way, either.

   

[acomplishedartis]

wow, I had not been able to come to see the forum lately, seems like you guys are having a great conversation.

Kat,  I wish someday be able to talk with you personally. By the way your last post have some very good points, also Rene's.

Ataiwan, I am glad you liked the topic. If you don't feel right now that you are ready to rule with Christ, you are not alone on it, but we will have to hold our breath and wait until we are death, God is very good to make big changes in people with little time (the best example is Paul). I am glad I am only 27 years old, sometimes I feel that I am learning and growing and other times I don't feel so inspired. Also sometimes I feel as if had already live many lives (in my own life) because of the very different life experiences that I have had on the last 10 years.

The more a try to learn key verses, the more I realize that we are to become more like Jesus, ...and, how was Jesus? He was humble... so I guess that's what I need and what I should be looking for... reminds me some verse in Ec. about we humans having an experience of evil so that we can learn humility.

Probably God doesn't need to show us all the technical aspects of ruling, and he just desire a humble heart ready to follow him and say; here I am, what's next...

(personally, I just wish I could find a humble girl I could marry and be more humble myself--usually people tends to relate lack of physical objects with humility, but I believe that's wrong. When talking about true humility, objects have no place on the equation,, well you guys surely already know about it, I just mention it because this is something that I have been learning lately and wanted to share...)

Moises