Here are a couple of emails from Ray that might be helpful, I too am trying to get the nuances of this down.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3815.0 -------
Why does God pre-ordain for certain men to rape little girls?
Why does He preordain for this to happen?
Lee
Dear Lee:
We must be careful how we use words and phrases and also be careful not
to draw fallacious conclusions from Scriptural Truths. The Bible nowhere says
that God "pre-ordained" such sins. It says he has a fore-knowledge OF such
sins. Many people over the years have tried to force me into saying that God sins
and that God is evil, but I won't say it, because I don't believe it. God nowhere
says that He "ordains" sin, and so I don't say it either.
God did not "pre-ordain" me to eat Girl Scott cookies today, but I did. Man has
the ability to think, plan, create, imagine, and carry out these devised lusts of his
heart, and yes, God KNEW a long time ago just what we would do, but nowhere
does it say that God "pre-ordained" our sins. We live and operate under law. We
automatically do certain things under certain stimuli. It does not need to be "pre-
ordained."
Maybe what you are really asking is why did God create humanity so that they would
sin under all of these different stimuli? But that's a topic too big for an email. Besides,
I have covered these things many times in the articles on our site. If you look up ordain
or ordained in a concordance, you will find that God has ordained dozens of things in
the Scripture, but nowhere does it say He ordained particular sins.
God be with you,
Ray
Brother Smith,
Thanks for responding to my e-mail a day or two ago. And so soon too! I appreciate it.
I realize what you say in that we must be careful how we use words and phrases...and that where the Bible says nowhere that God "preordained" such sins.
Of course, the Bible does not put it that way, that "God preordains sins". God does NOT sin and God is NOT evil. This we know for sure. But I guess that what I am saying is that when it comes to the sins of mankind, why do we always come short in attributing these also to God, who He Himself has planned, and executed, and is responsible for all the actions of men. "Oh no, He doesn't go that far"! Why not? Certain men raping little girls is not of God? Why not? I know that this sounds horrible to say but again, let me repeat that God does NOT sin and God is NOT evil. His thoughts are not as our thoughts and His ways are not as our ways.
A sparrow doesn't fall to the ground without the Father. The very hairs on the heads of every creature are all numbered by God. Are not "ALL things of God"? Doesn't He "work ALL things after the counsel of His OWN will"? Just how much of "ALL things are of God" are all? Should we begin to say, "all things are of God, EXCEPT when it comes to the sins of His clay pots"? When it comes to this, God had nothing to do with it; God didn't plan it; God didn't execute it; God didn't "pre-ordain" it. Is that what we should say? All things are of God except.................? God planned for a certain man to be born at a certain time; He planned for another man and woman to be born at a certain time; He planned and ordained and arranged for where a certain man would live; He planned and arranged for another man and woman to meet and to get married and where they would live; He planned and ordained t hat this man and woman live in this neighborhood and have a daughter to be born; He planned for this other man to live next door to this man and woman; over the years, He planned for this daughter to grow and mature; one day, the man next door attacks and rapes this little girl, and then we say, "God had nothing to do with it; God does not preordain the sinful actions of his clay pots". I don't understand. Perhaps, we are not meant to understand. Again I say that God does NOT sin and God is NOT evil. But either ALL THINGS ARE OF GOD or they are not!
Lee
Dear Lee:
I understand your frustration, but you are still lacking understanding.
When a parent gives his teenager a little slack as we say, he knows
that to some degree his teenager will abuse that liberty and do some
things that are wrong. When he does, is the parent at fault? Did the
parent actually commit the sin? Is the parent guilty of the sin? Should
the parent go to jail for the sin of his son? It is not as cut and dry as
you would like it to be.
"I [the Lord] create EVIL...." (Isa. 4:7). Therefore, according to your
simplistic approach to this subject, God IS EVIL, right? If God creates
evil, then HE IS EVIL, isn't He? How could it be any other way according to your
reasoning? If God creates a man who will rape a little girl, then GOD
HIMSELF RAPED THAT LITTLE GIRL, right? If God planned it: He did it.
Right? Wrong.
You would prefer that it be that simple and that crude, but it isn't. I am
not denying that God had the foreknowledge of a particular rape, but I am
not about to say that God pre-ordained that rape. You can't conclude that:
[1] God made humanity. [2] Humanity all sins. [3] Therefore GOD IS SIN!
The Scriptures tell us that "God CANNOT lie." Yet we have several Scriptures
that tell us God SENDS A LYING SPIRIT to deceive people. Therefore is God a LIAR
when He tells us that He "CANNOT lie?"
Let me help you with the answer: Why is it wrong for one man to kill another
man, but it is not wrong for God to kill a man? Several reasons: [1] Intent of heart.
God kills out of righteousness. [2] God kills for the welfare of the one He kills.
[3] God has the power to bring back to life and rectify all wrongs and all evils,
and is therefore FULLY JUSTIFIED IN ALL HIS WAYS.
Hope the helps your understanding a little better.
God be with you,
Ray
Dear Sean and Forum:
Regarding your statement: "Hi again Ray,
I think you've got me confused with the guy who sent the original
e-mail regarding this topic. I read it in the forum"
Yes, maybe I do have you confused with another. Since this hit the Forum it has been like a feeding frenzy. I have been getting all kinds of emails regarding my "contradiction." I will address this question later, as there is a whole lot more involved here than meets the eye with the word "ordained," which is used to represent nearly a dozen separate words in the Bible. When I wrote Part 2 of my "Lake of Fire' series seven years ago, I assure you that I did not have in mind that "God ORDAINED specific men to rape and cut the heads of off of specific children." That was the furtherest thing from my mind when I was specifically countering the Christian teaching that God DOES NOT KNOW IN ADVANCE what people will think or do. However, "fore-ordained," was not a proper choice of words to be used to describe God's "foreknowledge," which is something totally different from "fore-ordained."
It doesn't effect the principle of the teaching, but I will change out the word "fore-ordained"
What God "ordains" in the Bible carries the connotation of almost putting His "blessing" on the thing that is ordained. But as we cannot find anywhere in the Scriptures where God specifically ordains a specific SIN of humanity, such raping a little girl, I naturally took offense when the initial question in this little debate asked, why does God ORDAIN dirty old men to rape little children? (or words to that effect). There is a difference between God "fore-knowing" something and "fore-ORDAINING" something, although many refuse to see it.
Hence we have such doctrines as "God cannot look upon sin," which is the result of a miss-translation in the book of Habakkuk. Likewise it is untrue that the sacrificing of children to the god Molech "never entered God's MIND." The proper translation is "HEART." Is there a difference between mind and heart? Yes. Is there a difference between God not tempting any man, but yet sends temptations? Yes. Is there a difference between God "CANNOT lie" and sending a "LYING spirit?" Yes there is, but I don't have time to do a whole paper on this subject right now, because I am far behind in more important things. People have tried by the hundreds and thousands to trip me up over the years to insinuate that if what I teach regarding the foreknowledge and Sovereignty of God is true, then they present a dozen ways in which that would mean God is the AUTHOR OF SIN, or that God Himself IS EVIL. If God KNOWS in advance that people will commit certain sins, then isn't he "condoning" such sin? If they are a necessary part of His Plan and Purpose do they not work and work good. Therefore are not all these things "good?" Therefore isn't raping little children and cutting their heads off, a GOOD THING? Can you see where this kind of thinking leads?
I have no objection to a question like: "Why does God allow evil in the world?" I can answer that question. But, someone asks: "Why does God ORDAIN men to rape children?" that offends my spirit.. I will cover it in a future paper, but I just don't have the time right now, but I also didn't want everyone to think that I am avoiding the question or the many responses to it. Hope you will all be patient.
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2354.0 -------------
Dear Whirlwind:
You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?" It is BOTH. Listen: God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE. That's it. That's all there is to it. That IS the principle. That IS the Truth. That IS what the Bible teaches. It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices." You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation. It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."
I hardly know what else to tell you. God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams. They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God. So then we don't make choices, right? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES. It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see. Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED. And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that? He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.
So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS? Well, does He? Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls? That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will. They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right? Wrong, wrong, wrong!
Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them. He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things. And who created the Devil? That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things. Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money. God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT. They volunteer with little outside influence. God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak. Eve couldn't help but sin. God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.
I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it. Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!
God be with you,
Ray
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