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Charlotte's Web - Medical Marijuana
Kat:
Hi alex, I guess I am "trying to split hairs" here, because I do not think it is as simple as God causes all things, period and just leave it at that. As we all have learned there are many complicated issues in understanding this truth and I want to take notice of some of the more specific points that I think are very important to having a complete understanding.
Yes of course God is responsible for all of His creation and the plan that He has for it. But when we say the God is the ultimate cause of everything and that includes evil and just leave it at that, it can make God sound evil, which we know He is not. I think we need to try to show a more complete picture, so that is what I'm getting at. So here are more emails.
http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm ------------------
Why would Jesus tell us to pray that God should NOT lead us into temptation [Gk: trial] when, in reality, we DO go through trials?
After all, Jesus was led of the spirit into the wilderness for the express purpose of being "tried."
Then James comes along and says
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, NEITHER TEMPTS HE ANY MANY." (James 1:13).
And if that is bad enough, James first tells us in James 1:2 to
"...COUNT IT ALL JOY WHEN YE FALL INTO DIVERS TEMPTATIONS"!
What is going on here?
Although this might sound like a triple contradiction, it is not.
First let's be abundantly clear that God, HIMSELF, does not ever do the actual "trying or tempting."
"And the SERPENT said unto Eve... And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food, and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES ['...the lust of the eyes ... is NOT OF the Father...' John 2:16], and a tree to be DESIRED to make one wise, she TOOK of the fruit thereof, and DID EAT... And the woman said, THE SERPENT BEGUILED [deceived] ME..." (Gen. 3:6 & 13).
"And lead us not into temptation but DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan]" (Matt. 6:13).
"...when YOU FALL into divers [various] temptations [trials]..." (James 1:2).
"But every man is tempted, when he is DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST, and enticed. THEN when lust has conceived, it brings forth SIN: and sin, when it is finished [full grown], brings DEATH" (James 1:14-15).
From all of these examples it is abundantly clear that it is not the OBJECT that is the TEMPTATION, but rather the temptation COMES FROM WITHIN, not from without. It was not the "tree" that MADE Eve lust. It is not the "pretty woman" that MAKES a man lust. The LUST IS IN THE MIND, IN THE HEART, and therefore, the trial IS IN THE HEART AND MIND, not in the literal flesh.
And so we pray that God should not lead us into temptation, but rather DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan] WHO DOES LEAD US INTO TEMPTATION.
But notice again, we pray that we should be "DELIVERED." We cannot be 'delivered' from something UNLESS WE ARE ALREADY IN IT! God intends that we get "IN IT"--trials and temptations, which are GOOD FOR US, AFTER we have gone through them.
The longer we live the Christian walk, the better we should get at this. Hence Paul tells us,
"For if we would JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged" (I Cor. 11:31).
The MORE we 'judge ourselves' the LESS we are "lead into temptation." We learn to cut it off at the pass, as they say. It is by God's divine counsel that we are led into temptation (even if God never DIRECTLY tries or tempts us), and it is by God's divine counsel that He delivers us from the "evil one."
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3570.0.html ------
There are many things that God has created that are not a part of His "heart." Evil is not a part of God's heart. The death of the wicked is not something God cherishes in His heart. Sin is not something that God endorses, yet He created all the circumstances for its use.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3815.0 ----------------
We must be careful how we use words and phrases and also be careful not
to draw fallacious conclusions from Scriptural Truths. The Bible nowhere says
that God "pre-ordained" such sins. It says he has a fore-knowledge OF such
sins. Many people over the years have tried to force me into saying that God sins
and that God is evil, but I won't say it, because I don't believe it. God nowhere
says that He "ordains" sin, and so I don't say it either.
God did not "pre-ordain" me to eat Girl Scott cookies today, but I did. Man has
the ability to think, plan, create, imagine, and carry out these devised lusts of his
heart, and yes, God KNEW a long time ago just what we would do, but nowhere
does it say that God "pre-ordained" our sins. We live and operate under law. We
automatically do certain things under certain stimuli. It does not need to be "pre-
ordained."
Maybe what you are really asking is why did God create humanity so that they would
sin under all of these different stimuli? But that's a topic too big for an email. Besides,
I have covered these things many times in the articles on our site. If you look up ordain
or ordained in a concordance, you will find that God has ordained dozens of things in
the Scripture, but nowhere does it say He ordained particular sins.
God be with you,
Ray
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Kat on March 19, 2014, 10:54:33 PM ---
Hi alex, I guess I am "trying to split hairs" here, because I do not think it is as simple as God causes all things, period and just leave it at that. As we all have learned there are many complicated issues in understanding this truth and I want to take notice of some of the more specific points that I think are very important to having a complete understanding.
Yes of course God is responsible for all of His creation and the plan that He has for it. But when we say the God is the ultimate cause of everything and that includes evil and just leave it at that, it can make God sound evil, which we know He is not. I think we need to try to show a more complete picture, so that is what I'm getting at. So here are more emails.
http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm ------------------
Why would Jesus tell us to pray that God should NOT lead us into temptation [Gk: trial] when, in reality, we DO go through trials?
After all, Jesus was led of the spirit into the wilderness for the express purpose of being "tried."
Then James comes along and says
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, NEITHER TEMPTS HE ANY MANY." (James 1:13).
And if that is bad enough, James first tells us in James 1:2 to
"...COUNT IT ALL JOY WHEN YE FALL INTO DIVERS TEMPTATIONS"!
What is going on here?
Although this might sound like a triple contradiction, it is not.
First let's be abundantly clear that God, HIMSELF, does not ever do the actual "trying or tempting."
"And the SERPENT said unto Eve... And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food, and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES ['...the lust of the eyes ... is NOT OF the Father...' John 2:16], and a tree to be DESIRED to make one wise, she TOOK of the fruit thereof, and DID EAT... And the woman said, THE SERPENT BEGUILED [deceived] ME..." (Gen. 3:6 & 13).
"And lead us not into temptation but DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan]" (Matt. 6:13).
"...when YOU FALL into divers [various] temptations [trials]..." (James 1:2).
"But every man is tempted, when he is DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST, and enticed. THEN when lust has conceived, it brings forth SIN: and sin, when it is finished [full grown], brings DEATH" (James 1:14-15).
From all of these examples it is abundantly clear that it is not the OBJECT that is the TEMPTATION, but rather the temptation COMES FROM WITHIN, not from without. It was not the "tree" that MADE Eve lust. It is not the "pretty woman" that MAKES a man lust. The LUST IS IN THE MIND, IN THE HEART, and therefore, the trial IS IN THE HEART AND MIND, not in the literal flesh.
And so we pray that God should not lead us into temptation, but rather DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan] WHO DOES LEAD US INTO TEMPTATION.
But notice again, we pray that we should be "DELIVERED." We cannot be 'delivered' from something UNLESS WE ARE ALREADY IN IT! God intends that we get "IN IT"--trials and temptations, which are GOOD FOR US, AFTER we have gone through them.
The longer we live the Christian walk, the better we should get at this. Hence Paul tells us,
"For if we would JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged" (I Cor. 11:31).
The MORE we 'judge ourselves' the LESS we are "lead into temptation." We learn to cut it off at the pass, as they say. It is by God's divine counsel that we are led into temptation (even if God never DIRECTLY tries or tempts us), and it is by God's divine counsel that He delivers us from the "evil one."
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3570.0.html ------
There are many things that God has created that are not a part of His "heart." Evil is not a part of God's heart. The death of the wicked is not something God cherishes in His heart. Sin is not something that God endorses, yet He created all the circumstances for its use.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3815.0 ----------------
We must be careful how we use words and phrases and also be careful not
to draw fallacious conclusions from Scriptural Truths. The Bible nowhere says
that God "pre-ordained" such sins. It says he has a fore-knowledge OF such
sins. Many people over the years have tried to force me into saying that God sins
and that God is evil, but I won't say it, because I don't believe it. God nowhere
says that He "ordains" sin, and so I don't say it either.
God did not "pre-ordain" me to eat Girl Scott cookies today, but I did. Man has
the ability to think, plan, create, imagine, and carry out these devised lusts of his
heart, and yes, God KNEW a long time ago just what we would do, but nowhere
does it say that God "pre-ordained" our sins. We live and operate under law. We
automatically do certain things under certain stimuli. It does not need to be "pre-
ordained."
Maybe what you are really asking is why did God create humanity so that they would
sin under all of these different stimuli? But that's a topic too big for an email. Besides,
I have covered these things many times in the articles on our site. If you look up ordain
or ordained in a concordance, you will find that God has ordained dozens of things in
the Scripture, but nowhere does it say He ordained particular sins.
God be with you,
Ray
--- End quote ---
Well I suppose I should split hairs as well then. I know there are many complicated matters in the scriptures. I am also very open to being wrong as I know that we were all blind once and may still be blind to many things. Only God can give us sight.
Now... God doesn't just "leave it at that." God has a plan and that plan will bring about the ultimate reconciliation of all things unto Himself through His Son. I don't see that as making Him evil. I don't see that just because God "creates evil" and "causes all things" to work after the council of His own Will, that when we take Him on His word, we get an evil God.
Eph 1:10-11 "That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of him who worketh ALL THINGS after the COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL."
2 Cor 5:18-19 "ALL THINGS ARE OF GOD, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."
Can we throw "evil" out of this "all things" because we think it makes God evil? DOES it mean God is EVIL? I really don't think so. I think It means He possess evil in some form. What form? IN THE FORM OF KNOWLEDGE. He can create it.
QUOTING RAY: http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html
"We have got to get away from the "God allows certain things" mentality and syndrome. God CREATES, God DESTROYS, God HEALS, God KILLS, God CAUSES, God BRINGS ABOUT, God SAVES. God does not "allow" things that He has not foreordained to be! This popular doctrine among the religions of the world is utter unscriptural foolishness. The teaching suggests that man does things that God had no previous knowledge of, does not approve of, wishes would have never happened, but nonetheless, He "allows" them. Certainly He "allows" them in as much as He does not "disallow" them, but this still begs the question AS TO THEIR TRUE ORIGIN. God is the Creator, not Satan.
"For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are all things: to Whom be glory for ever. Amen" (KJV Rom. 11:36).
"Seeing that OUT of Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him is all..." (Concordant Version).
Does this also include EVIL?
"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:6-7).
There are many many things in life that are very hard to accept and deal with in our weakened spiritual state. I cannot, after all this time, get the images of the Twin Towers collapsing on thousands of people, out of my mind. Or maybe even worse, the men, women and children in the four planes that knew they were destined to a violent disintegration in fire! I get teary-eyed every time I think of it. It is extremely traumatic to contemplate. And now another shuttle disaster! One at the hands of evil terrorists; the other an accident, fate, providence? But what is gained by trying to take all of these things out of the realm of God’s responsibility? God and God only has the "ability-to-respond." Man is not running God’s creation, God is. How can anyone doubt it?"
No, I see a very In control God. A God with a plan. I'm going to be honest Kat, it really sounds like you're trying to take the responsibility away from God for why things are the way they are in this world. For why the vast sea of humanity is nothing more than carnal beings all to quickly willing to line up for the next sinful act. This doesn't bode well with me.
Now as for temptation. I don't see God being the ultimate cause of all things--as He is the source of this creation--as equating Him to being the immediate reason people are tempted. However, the heart that is subject to temptations from which all evil things proceed forth was given to us by God. How then can you not lay the responsibility on God? How can you not say he is the TRUE ORIGIN?
God created Satan to tempt us and to try us.
1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"
Isaiah 54:16 "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I HAVE CREATED THE WASTER TO DESTROY."
Can you honestly tell me that without God having created Satan as a waster to destroy, that Satan would still be running around trying to tempt man kind and destroy him at every turn? If the answer is no, then how can you take God off the hook? Is not God the ultimate cause for someone being tempted as God created Satan and it is Satan who can tempt us? Doesn't this require GOd to take responsibility for His actions as in dying for our sins instead of WE dying for our OWN sins? Is this not what we see happened? I'm splittings hairs too now but the point must be made.
Lets consider the temptation of man, as he is tempted of his own self.
""But every man is tempted, when he is DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST, and enticed. THEN when lust has conceived, it brings forth SIN: and sin, when it is finished [full grown], brings DEATH" (James 1:14-15)."
Now lets look at what eve did:
"And the SERPENT said unto Eve... And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food, and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES ['...the lust of the eyes ... is NOT OF the Father...' John 2:16], and a tree to be DESIRED to make one wise, she TOOK of the fruit thereof, and DID EAT... And the woman said, THE SERPENT BEGUILED [deceived] ME..." (Gen. 3:6 & 13)."
Eve committed every act of sin before she ever ate of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, so how can you say God is not the ultimate cause as He created humanity in this state from the start. She was only capable of being tempted FROM THE START because of how she was created. She didn't develop this willingness to be tempted or this love of sinning. It was in her. Being tempted is not a sin but to say that when we are tempted, God is absolutely blameless in the matter is to try and remove God from the equation when He is the very reason the equation, or anything for that matter, any person to be tempted, exists in the first place.
QUOTING RAY: http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
IN THE BEGINNING/IN THE GARDEN
What was the first historically recorded choice of our first parents? We read of Mother Eve that:
"…she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat…" (Gen. 3:6).
But was this the first choice and the first sin attributed to our Mother Eve? No, it wasn’t the first. It was not even the second, or the third choice.
It is generally taught that Adam and Eve were spiritually perfect immediately after their creation, seeing that it says,
"And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good…" (Gen. 1:31).
Never mind the fact that even poisonous snakes were also "very good." Of course everything God made was "good." It was, in fact, even "perfect"—perfect, that is, for the purpose for which it was created.
But did our first parents have perfect and good spiritual character of heart when God completed them? Absolutely not! Far from it! They were as carnal-minded as any two people who have ever lived.
The Scriptures show us that Eve committed every known category of sin there is, before she ever ate of the forbidden fruit. This one should knock your socks off. It knocked mine off when I first discovered it.
Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and DESPERATELY WEAK: who can know it?
Again I ask, who created Humanity in this state of weakness, subject to futility and temptation? Who gave man this Heart? Satan? Man Himself? Or was it God?
Romans 8:19-21 For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but BY REASON OF HIM [GOD!] who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
As ray said, Temptation comes from within, I do not argue that; HOWEVER, can we suddenly now say that God is no longer responsible or the ULTIMATE CAUSE of WHY man finds himself in this situation? For why man is tempted? No we can't because without God having created us subject to vanity, with weak hearts, incapable of doing good and without God having created satan to tempt us and destroy us, without God having created evil, we would not be doing the things we are doing. YES, WE VOLUNTEER, YES WE WANT TO DO THEM, but we are VERY MUCH products of our circumstances and biology.
I agree with ray that evil is not apart of His heart. It is why He used his HAND to create the SERPENT but HIS SPIRIT to garnish the heavens. Does this somehow negate God's responsibility in creating Satan? In creating evil? Does this somehow make him LESS A CAUSE for its existence?
Lastly, Ordaining sins and God being the ultimate cause of sin are two different things in my opinion. Apples and oranges. God doesn't have to ORDAIN ANYONE to SIN because we VOLUNTEER. He just needs to "set the mood" for lack of a better phrase and we're in, hook line and sinker. BUT WHY DO WE VOLUNTEER? Because of how we were programmed, how we are hard wired and because of "external stimuli"--to use rays own words--that lead us to temptation. We are the CLAY, the FIRST VESSEL HE MADE WAS MARRED. Marred by who?! Molded by who?! Ourselves?! All things things are a product of God the creator whether they were garnished by His spirit or made by His hand (not of His heart), they still ALL POINT BACK TO HIM.
This is how I see things. I could be way off but it makes sense to me and I don't see an evil God. I see a very loving, in control Father who knows exactly what He's doing and exactly what our final destination is. Evil is always fit and limited to the frame in which God set it. That gives me great comfort. I see no evil God at all, only a very wise one.
God bless,
Alex
Kat:
Alex, I do not see you as being wrong, I don't think I ever said that. I know full well that God is sovereign, totally in control and it is by Him that all things consist and operate. Yes I know He created evil and Satan and I believe He is responsible for all things and will make everything more than just right, but blessed beyond our imagination.
Yes He is in charge and ultimately the cause of all things, and you seem to have a good grasp on that, but not everybody does, so I wanted to bring out both sides to our God. Now you have presented much more for everyone to consider, that's what this forum is all about.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lareli:
I think I disagree with the "being a dope head is not blessed by God" statement. Only because while I'm not sure what anyone's definition of "dope head" is, I'm certain that most Christians and people on here as well, would judge me as a "dope head", however, God has used Cannabis in my life as a tool to bring me closer to Him in personal relationship and love and forgiveness towards others.
rick:
Hi Largeli,
I think cannabis is also referred to as devil’s weed also......but to each their own. I believe whatever one does is between God and that one. We either stand or fall to our Master.
I think we know that the heart is exceedingly wicked and deceitful above all things. I can’t say if pot is bad or good but I would say any mind altering drug is a deception.
Its and artificial feeling that can lead one down the slippery road, it’s a gateway drug that can lead to other drugs. True God made the poppy plant but does God want us shooting heroin in our body ?
When I was younger I smoke pot all the time, you know, before marriage and children and to be honest with you I never felt there was anything wrong with pot, some of my best times in life was smoking weed.......LOl
Lets not forget about the human heart and how deceitful it can be. Is smoking pot a sin ? I say anything outside of faith is a sin but Christ paid the price for everyone. One’s conscience
either excuse or condemn.
If smoking pot is wrong, God forgives, if its right then no forgiveness is needed but either way God will make all things right and that is awesome. :)
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