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Bride and Body
indianabob:
Friend John and folks,
I read the referenced site that you offered and found it very helpful.
http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm#zender
I don't believe I have ever seen it prior to today.
In the letters Ray explains a lot that I needed to read.
I do still have one question that perhaps you can help with.
What exactly was it that believing Jews, Hebrews or "men of the circumcision" believed about Jesus or about what Jesus taught the twelve?
If some of these "true believers" died before apostle Paul began his ministry several years after Jesus ascended, what beliefs did they hold that qualified them as true believers, beneficiaries of Grace as understood by Paul?
For them how did grace apply any differently (if it did) than for the Gentiles in Rome or Corinth for example?
It would appear from the context of the writings of the 12 that they didn't at first understand that Jesus would be killed and would rise again; because it was hidden from them until Jesus rose from the dead. So if they didn't understand then the people they taught about Jesus being the expected Messiah would not have understood either. It seems that they were expecting Messiah to replace the occupying Roman army very soon and during their life times and I'm pretty sure that many died during Jesus' ministry and never heard any differently.
Or am I misunderstanding a basic teaching...
Thanks, Indiana Bob
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on April 03, 2014, 12:07:19 PM ---Just because someone understands one truth, like God will save all, does not make them converted or spiritually minded.
Many associated with the Concordant Publishing Company have this strange belief in two salvations, one for the Jews and one for the gentiles. They believe Paul taught a different gospel than Peter.
Here is where Ray discusses this a little. http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm#zender
--- End quote ---
Dave in Tenn:
Bob, I reckon what they believed, if they were true believers, was what Peter preached at Pentecost and what the Lord continued to reveal during whatever life they had left before the conversion and ministry of Paul.
Acts open with this:
Act 1:1 The first account, indeed, I (Luke) make, O Theophilus, concerning all which Jesus begins both to do and to teach,
Act 1:2 until the day on which He was taken up; through holy spirit directing the apostles whom He chooses,
Act 1:3 to whom also He presents Himself alive after His suffering, with many tokens, during forty days, being visualized to them and telling them that which concerns the kingdom of God."
He just a bit later adds this from what the Lord said after His resurrection:
Act 1:6 Those, indeed, then, who are coming together, asked Him, saying, "Lord, art Thou at this time restoring the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 Yet He said to them, "Not yours is it to know times or eras which the Father placed in His own jurisdiction."
If they were "expecting" a Messianic kingdom in their lifetime, they had no real right to do so.
Acts 2 is the sermon Peter preached that day. You can see for yourself what he said to and about them and what they were required to do to "OBEY" the gospel. No need to post the whole chapter here, but first they were required to REPENT and be Baptized.
Some 3000 did. And afterwards:
Act 2:42 And they were continuing steadfastly in the doctrine of the apostles, and in fellowship, and in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Act 2:43 And fear came to every soul, and many wonders and miraculous signs took place through the apostles.
Act 2:44 And all the believers were together and had all things common.
Act 2:45 And they sold possessions and goods and distributed them to all, according as anyone had need.
Act 2:46 And continuing steadfastly with one mind day by day in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they shared food in gladness and simplicity of heart,
Act 2:47 praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the assembly, the ones being saved from day to day.
If they were believers, that's what they believed and did--collectively, the Doctrine of the Apostles. I can't fathom a theology that suggests that the Apostles' doctrine was different from that which Jesus preached and modeled.
Of course, that's just the simplified version. A number of things still had to be revealed.
indianabob:
Thanks Dave,
So then are those similar or like John the Baptizer who some on the forum say will not be in the "kingdom" because the Lord Jesus had not yet been crucified when John the Baptizer was killed?
Indiana Bob
John from Kentucky:
--- Quote from: indianabob on April 20, 2014, 03:18:28 PM ---Friend John and folks,
I read the referenced site that you offered and found it very helpful.
http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm#zender
I don't believe I have ever seen it prior to today.
In the letters Ray explains a lot that I needed to read.
I do still have one question that perhaps you can help with.
What exactly was it that believing Jews, Hebrews or "men of the circumcision" believed about Jesus or about what Jesus taught the twelve?
If some of these "true believers" died before apostle Paul began his ministry several years after Jesus ascended, what beliefs did they hold that qualified them as true believers, beneficiaries of Grace as understood by Paul?
For them how did grace apply any differently (if it did) than for the Gentiles in Rome or Corinth for example?
It would appear from the context of the writings of the 12 that they didn't at first understand that Jesus would be killed and would rise again; because it was hidden from them until Jesus rose from the dead. So if they didn't understand then the people they taught about Jesus being the expected Messiah would not have understood either. It seems that they were expecting Messiah to replace the occupying Roman army very soon and during their life times and I'm pretty sure that many died during Jesus' ministry and never heard any differently.
Or am I misunderstanding a basic teaching...
Thanks, Indiana Bob
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on April 03, 2014, 12:07:19 PM ---Just because someone understands one truth, like God will save all, does not make them converted or spiritually minded.
Many associated with the Concordant Publishing Company have this strange belief in two salvations, one for the Jews and one for the gentiles. They believe Paul taught a different gospel than Peter.
Here is where Ray discusses this a little. http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm#zender
--- End quote ---
--- End quote ---
Hi I-Bob,
Paul is not important. Peter is not important.
No one had to wait around for Paul to teach about grace.
Where did grace come from? From Paul?
What say the Scriptures?
...grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1:17
It's all about Jesus.
John
rickylittleton:
Hello all: Just to add my 2 cents in; I am some what a student of the history of the early church. There are some things in history that the church likes to keep under the table, but you can know this for sure that history does not lie. To make it short, many leaders of the early church did every thing they could to separate them selves from anything having to do with the Hebrew people, and the foundation of the teaching that there were 2 different salivations; one for the Christians, and another lesser one for the Jews started way back because of antisemitic teaching. But rest assured, what Jesus did on the cross took care of everybody. Tim
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