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[Mike Gagne]

Could some one tell me when the elect becomes the elect? If we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world then would we be born the elect. I know LRays teaching in the LOF on who is the beast part13 ,and where he talks about 2 thess 2:3-4 . Is that when we become the elect or are we born the elect. Does Lray have any teaching on this?

[Dave in Tenn]

Were Peter, James, John and the others disciples of Christ before they were disciples of Christ?

It's in 'the fullness of time' when things happen, even when they are predestined to happen.  He knows.  We don't know until the fullness of time.

Mike, Ray taught from the Revelation that it is in looking BACK that we hear the voice.

Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet...
 

[Kat]

Hi Mike,

As with all things it's a process, yes the elect have been chosen from before the foundation of the world, which mean they are born to be an elect and whoever those Elect are, they can not be lost.

Eph 1:4  just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

But only God knows who are His and who will endure to the end, because at first the elect are among the rest of the deceived and are just as blind as they are. But for a few, one day God opens their blind eyes and draws them to Him so they can begin the next part of the process.

John 6:44  No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:27  My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
v. 28  And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
v. 29  My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
v. 30  I and My Father are one."

Here is an email.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2059.0.html ------------

Those whom God has foreordained to be the elect will always be the elect. The chosen elect cannot be lost.  But you and I do not know exactly who is and who isn't an elect. Only God's knows those who are His, and therefore, we can never let down our guard, because we might only think that we are elect.  I have seen and witnessed this with my own eyes where those who appeared to be elect, turned and now blaspheme the name of the Saviour they claimed to worship a short while back.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But of the few then we have the parable of the sower and the seed. Here is a excerpt form 'What Happened to the Church Jesus Built?' article no. 8.

http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html -------------------

THE "CALLED" AND THE "NOT CALLED"

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many [some, but not many] wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

But God has chosen the foolish things [many translations do not insert the word "things" in these verses] of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And the base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in His presence" (I Cor. 1:26-29).

So we see that God calls MOSTLY those who are: weak, base, despised, nothings! Are we to believe that God is going to build a SPIRITUAL ARMY of Sons and Daughters by which He will conquer and SAVE THE WORLD?

Hard to believe, isn’t it? I think we can all agree that there is a great deal of work to be done with and to these "nothings of the world" whom God is calling to such a formidable, once-in-an-eternity task!

But of the "many called," we are told, "few are chosen" (Matt. 20:16). Why is that? God has intended it to be such. We are given the parable of the "sower of seed" where much of the seed fell by the side of the tilled soil, and the birds ate it; some had no depth and withered in the sun; still more fell among thorns and were chocked, but some fell upon good soil and produced much fruit. Many seed are sown, but few seed produce good fruit. "Seed" we see everywhere in the Church; "fruit" of God’s spirit is more rare. These few have the added designation of:

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:14).

These are the "very elect" who cannot be deceived any longer
-------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Mike Gagne]

Thank you Dave, yes I am starting to see that looking back I can see what has been happening!           Thank you also Kat, I read so much teachings from the LOF that I forgot I read that twice already. It's been like I get in there reading LRays writings and I can't stop and then when I do stop I have a hard time remembering all that I read. I was on chapter 5 of the LOF series with this question in my head and here it was coming up in chapter 8 lol. I guess I need to slow down and digest all these truths! Thanks you so much! I am glad to know that you guys are here for help.

[Mike Gagne]

Thanks Kat I get it now. blessing

[arion]

But of the "many called," we are told, "few are chosen" (Matt. 20:16). Why is that? God has intended it to be such.

Reminds me of another story from the scriptures.  They are pregnant with examples and types for us once God takes off the blinders.  Here is one of my favorites.  Can we see ourselves in here?


Judges 7:2-7 And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people that are with thee are too many for me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel vaunt themselves against me, saying, Mine own hand hath saved me.  Now therefore go to, proclaim in the ears of the people, saying, Whosoever is fearful and afraid, let him return and depart early from mount Gilead. And there returned of the people twenty and two thousand; and there remained ten thousand.  And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people are yet too many; bring them down unto the water, and I will try them for thee there: and it shall be, that of whom I say unto thee, This shall go with thee, the same shall go with thee; and of whomsoever I say unto thee, This shall not go with thee, the same shall not go.  So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue, as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one that boweth down upon his knees to drink.  And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, were three hundred men: but all the rest of the people bowed down upon their knees to drink water.  And the LORD said unto Gideon, By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into thine hand: and let all the other people go every man unto his place.

Once again we see it played out between the few and the many.  God is choosing 'few' to bring the many to salvation in the ages ahead.  There are so many examples for us once God allows us to see it.

[Mike Gagne]

Thanks Arion.                                                                                                                              There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven- A time to give birth and a time to die; A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted. A time to kill and a time to heal; A time to tear down and a time to build up. A time to weep and a time to laugh; A time to mourn and a time to dance. A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones; A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing. A time to search and a time to give up as lost; A time to keep and a time to throw away. A time to tear apart and a time to sew together; A time to be silent and a time to speak. A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace. What profit is there to the worker from that in which he toils? I have seen the task which God has given the sons of men with which to occupy themselves. (Ecclesiastes 3:1-10                                                   Then I think it's safe to say if you are the elect your whole life has been apart of getting you ready for the first resurrection ?                For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (Isaiah 28:10 ) I think I see it now, that the life time of afflictions and suffering are all part of preparing those who are the elect and that their whole life is a part of the process to become the First fruits of God. If I am wrong would some one show me different? Thanks again everyone. Blessing

[Dave in Tenn]

I think that's true, Mike...but not ONLY about the Elect.  There is a FIRST, but the fall harvest is the big one.  That's the one that makes Jesus the Savior of the world.  We always take HIS yoke.  That's the way it works.   

[Mike Gagne]

Thank God that his fall harvest will include all the rest!!!  It's hard when you see all the suffering in the world to understand the difference between the elects  afflictions and suffering and the worlds ?

[onelovedread]

Does God really play favorites? His Word says He is no respecter of persons.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the spirit; yet where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."
18 Now we all, with uncovered face, mirroring the Lord's glory, are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the spirit."

Is it God who gave Himself to save man who has blinded man's eyes, or is it satan, the god of this world?

2 Corinthians 4: 3 Now, if our evangel is covered, also, it is covered in those who are perishing, 4 in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the
 illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them."

[Kat]

Hi JohnChris,

While God has the right to choose and use whoever He sees fit, I think you must look at this from where we are in God's plan. The elect are actually a few that are chosen or favored above the rest of the people of the world at this time. The elect are the privileged few that will be in the first resurrection, so yes favored.

Mat 20:16  So the last shall be first, and the first last, for many are called, but few are chosen.

In this statement the "first" seems to be the Jews, called to be God's people through the OT, but not a single one of them will be in the first resurrection. But don't you think they were favored over the rest of the nations of the world at that time? Maybe they were a physical foreshadow of the spiritually favored people yet to come, which would be the "last" or those that came later after the Jews, the few, the elect.

This is from Strong's Greek dictionary:

chosen
G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.

From Webster's

Chosen
CHOSEN, pp.

1. Selected from a number; picked out; taken in preference; elected; predestinated; designated to office.

2. Select; distinguished by preference; eminent.

Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood. 1 Pet 2.

Favorite
FA'VORITE, n.

A person or thing regarded with peculiar favor, preference and affection; one greatly beloved. Select favorites from among the discrete and the virtuous.

FA'VORITE, a. Regarded with particular kindness, affection, esteem or preference; as a favorite walk; a favorite author; a favorite child.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[octoberose]

What I wrestle with is that the Elect of God , in this life , have the gift of the indwelling Spirit of God. But the called do not have the spirit of God- correct? So if you or  I  am not in the Elect, then I am bereft and empty because His Spirit is not with me . And there's nothing I can do about it. I don't really know how to cope with that.

[arion]

Joh_14:17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

That isn't correct.  The Holy Spirit is with all of the saints in this life....even only the called.  But he is IN the very elect of God.  How could we learn any of these truths if the holy spirit of God isn't with us?  I've felt flashes of inspiration and God's presence many times even when I was in my carnal church.  It's just that there were a lot of things I didn't understand and couldn't overcome as long as I was still in that church system.  God is presently with each and every one of us and for the elect he 'shall be' [future tense] in us when we are converted.  Either in this age as part of the very elect or in the ages to come.

[John from Kentucky]

Joh_14:17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

That isn't correct.  The Holy Spirit is with all of the saints in this life....even only the called.  But he is IN the very elect of God.  How could we learn any of these truths if the holy spirit of God isn't with us?  I've felt flashes of inspiration and God's presence many times even when I was in my carnal church.  It's just that there were a lot of things I didn't understand and couldn't overcome as long as I was still in that church system.  God is presently with each and every one of us and for the elect he 'shall be' [future tense] in us when we are converted.  Either in this age as part of the very elect or in the ages to come.

No you are mistaken.  The Holy Spirit only dwells within the called and chosen, the little flock, the few, those who are the first fruits now, those who will be in the 1st Resurrection, the members of the Church of the Living God.  Read about the seven churches in the Book of Revelation.

[Kat]

Hi Arion,

Here is that verse from the Concordant.

John 14:17 17 the spirit of truth, which the world can not get, for it is not beholding it, neither is knowing it. Yet you know it, for it is remaining with you and will be in you."

That phrase at the end, "for it is remaining with you and will be in you," seems to be speaking to the elect only. Christ was speaking to them before His crucifixion so was speaking of what "will be," but was saying once it came it would be "remaining" from then on.

The first part of that verse "the spirit of truth, which the world can not get," is speaking to all the rest of the world.

As for understanding the truth we do have human reasoning to think about these things, but that cannot take get you much spiritual understanding, because that is also where the doctrine of man comes from. I think the world's understanding is what the principle behind the sower and the seed... people can see a glimpse of truth, but without the spirit indwelling it cannot remain and will be lost one way or another.

Mark 4:3  "Listen! A sower went out to sow.
v. 4  And as he sowed, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.
v. 5  Other seed fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil.
v. 6  And when the sun rose, it was scorched, and since it had no root, it withered away.
v. 7  Other seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no grain.
v. 8  And other seeds fell into good soil and produced grain, growing up and increasing and yielding thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."
v. 9  And he said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dennis Vogel]

Does God really play favorites? His Word says He is no respecter of persons.

I don't see it as playing favorites in this life:

2Th 1:4  So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

2Co 6:4  But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,

2Co 12:10  Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Col 1:24  Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

2Ti 3:11  Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

1Th 3:3  That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.

... and many others.

[cjwood]

dennis, i think you forgot to mention this post in your reply regarding not seeing it as (God) playing favorites.

claudia

The elect are actually a few that are chosen or favored above the rest of the people of the world at this time. The elect are the privileged few that will be in the first resurrection, so yes favored.




claudia

[Dennis Vogel]

dennis, i think you forgot to mention this post in your reply regarding not seeing it as (God) playing favorites.

claudia

The elect are actually a few that are chosen or favored above the rest of the people of the world at this time. The elect are the privileged few that will be in the first resurrection, so yes favored.

claudia

Favored yes, but not always having a favored life in the flesh. I see it as a hard life which is necessary to remold us.

Ray says getting saved is the hardest thing you will ever do (12 minutes in):

Getting Saved part 1: http://bible-truths.com/audio/N05 GettingSaved_p1.mp3
Getting Saved part 2: http://bible-truths.com/audio/N05 GettingSaved_p2.mp3

[arion]

No you are mistaken.  The Holy Spirit only dwells within the called and chosen, the little flock, the few, those who are the first fruits now, those who will be in the 1st Resurrection, the members of the Church of the Living God.  Read about the seven churches in the Book of Revelation.

John;

Isn't that exactly what I said here?

The Holy Spirit is with all of the saints in this life....even only the called.  But he is IN the very elect of God. 

He only dwells within the called and chosen.

[John from Kentucky]

No you are mistaken.  The Holy Spirit only dwells within the called and chosen, the little flock, the few, those who are the first fruits now, those who will be in the 1st Resurrection, the members of the Church of the Living God.  Read about the seven churches in the Book of Revelation.

John;

Isn't that exactly what I said here?

The Holy Spirit is with all of the saints in this life....even only the called.  But he is IN the very elect of God. 

He only dwells within the called and chosen.

O.K. Arion, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  I believe the term "saint" refers to the called and chosen.

The Spirit of God is not with those called into the great false church, where Satan is their leader.