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Arion

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Re: Elect
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2014, 11:25:52 AM »



O.K. Arion, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  I believe the term "saint" refers to the called and chosen.

The Spirit of God is not with those called into the great false church, where Satan is their leader.



WHO ARE THE SAINTS?

If the very elect can’t be deceived, is it possible for saints to be deceived? Yes, there is a difference. One can be a saint long before he becomes the VERY elect. Were the believers in Ephesus called, saints?

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS which are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1).

So, Yes, the believers in Ephesus were called saints. But were they perfect? Were they spiritually mature? Were they the VERY elect? No, they weren’t.

"Unto the angel of the church of EPHESUS write… I have somewhat [‘somewhat’ is not in the Greek texts] …I have against you, because you have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:1 & 4).

Is Jesus accusing the whole church at Ephesus of leaving their first love, if in reality, there were only a few? But there were NOT just a few—the WHOLE CHURCH of Ephesus "left their first love." And furthermore, since the Seven Churches are ONE CHURCH, THE WHOLE CHURCH left their first love! Believe it or not, leaving one’s first love, is part of the process of "going on to perfection" (Heb. 6:1).

continued......

http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Elect
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2014, 05:17:11 PM »



O.K. Arion, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  I believe the term "saint" refers to the called and chosen.

The Spirit of God is not with those called into the great false church, where Satan is their leader.



WHO ARE THE SAINTS?

If the very elect can’t be deceived, is it possible for saints to be deceived? Yes, there is a difference. One can be a saint long before he becomes the VERY elect. Were the believers in Ephesus called, saints?

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS which are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1).

So, Yes, the believers in Ephesus were called saints. But were they perfect? Were they spiritually mature? Were they the VERY elect? No, they weren’t.

"Unto the angel of the church of EPHESUS write… I have somewhat [‘somewhat’ is not in the Greek texts] …I have against you, because you have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:1 & 4).

Is Jesus accusing the whole church at Ephesus of leaving their first love, if in reality, there were only a few? But there were NOT just a few—the WHOLE CHURCH of Ephesus "left their first love." And furthermore, since the Seven Churches are ONE CHURCH, THE WHOLE CHURCH left their first love! Believe it or not, leaving one’s first love, is part of the process of "going on to perfection" (Heb. 6:1).

continued......

http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html


The English word "saint" is from the Greek word "hagios".  The Greek word "hagios" means holy, reverent, set apart and applicable to God.

For example in the name Holy Spirit, the translation Holy is from the Greek "Hagios".  See Matt. 1:18; the reference to Holy Spirit, the Holy is "Hagios".  And there are many Scriptures where it is the Holy (Hagios) Spirit.

Therefore, based upon the association of the word "hagios", holy or saint, I do not believe it applies to every member of the Christian Churches throughout the ages.

Only the Elect, the small chosen few, will be gathered to Jesus at the 1st Resurrection; the rest will be burned (symbolically).

In Eph 1:1, is the term saints referring to the whole church at Ephesus, or a subset, a few who are saints, holy to God?  I don't think that one verse is absolutely clear on that one point.

The seven churches in Revelation are not referring to the literal seven churches in Asia Minor at that time.  Revelation is all written in symbolic language.  Those seven churches are symbolic churches, which represent the one Church throughout the ages.  Even then, only a few, the saints, the holy ones dedicated to God, are saved in the 1st Resurrection.

Lets cut through all the crap and get to the truth.  The Scriptures speaks of the Two Witnesses; in the mouth of two witnesses let every word be established.

Present your two Scriptures that clearly state that the word saint (hagios) refers to all the called into the church and not just the called and chosen (the Elect).

No cheating.  Don't try to fit an unrelated verse into the discussion and tell me that it is a fit.  I can tell.  You can't fool a Corleone.   :D 
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Arion

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Re: Elect
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2014, 08:30:26 PM »

...Lets cut through all the crap and get to the truth.

Well,

I don't think any of this is 'crap' but be that as it may, your addressing this to me but Ray wrote the piece and Ray isn't here to speak for himself and I have no intention to sit here and argue with you or parse words as it doesn't bear any fruit and I'm not seeking a point of contention with you either.  Ray stated it very well here I think 

'So, Yes, the believers in Ephesus were called saints. But were they perfect? Were they spiritually mature? Were they the VERY elect? No, they weren’t.'

If you stumble over the word saints and want to call them just 'believers', 'followers' or 'the called' but not the chosen or the churchgoers standing on the sand of the sea but not the very elect of God I have no problem with any of that.  It just doesn't make sense to me to seek out an argument or to nitpick over minutia.   And to keep this from spiraling downhill this will be my last post on this thread.

Take care..
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Elect
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2014, 10:55:13 PM »

Quote
It just doesn't make sense to me to seek out an argument or to nitpick over minutia.

 :)
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onelovedread

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Re: Elect
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2014, 10:01:49 AM »

Well according to Paul, at least one church knew they were elect:
1 Thessalonians 1:3 unceasingly remembering of you the work of the faith, and the labour of the love, and the endurance of the hope, of our Lord Jesus Christ, in the presence of our God and Father, 4 having known, brethren beloved, by God, your election, (Young's Literal Translation)

Rotherham's Emphasized
3 Unceasingly, remembering—your work of faith and labour of love and endurance of hope, of our Lord Jesus Christ, before our God and Father: 4. Knowing, brethren beloved by God, your election

Concordant
4 Having perceived, brethren beloved by God, your choice.

New King James Version
3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father, 4. knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.




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Kat

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Re: Elect
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2014, 10:37:29 AM »


Well I can't see why a topic cannot be discussed without arguing and contention. Arion brings out an interesting point about the saints from Ephesians 1 with a comment of Ray's, and I want to understand what Ray was saying there better. So as I read back over the article it became clear, in Revelation 12-13 it speaks of a the "beast" and "it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them" (Rev 13:6). Ray was explaining the point of how it was possible for the saints to be overcome at all.

So what I understand is that the saints are the elect (or better put, will be), Paul makes it clear in the rest of Ephesians 1.

Eph 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus.
v. 2  Grace be to you, and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
v. 3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ;
v. 4  according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
v. 5  having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
v. 6  to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the One having been loved.

But as Ray brought out there is a difference... it appears that the saints are God's chosen 'before' the Holy Spirit is indwelling, therefore they are still worldly and are deceived/overcome. It's only after the Spirit enters a person do they become "the very elect" and cannot be deceived any longer (Matt 24:24) and I think that is what Ray was bringing out.

http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html ------------------------

Next notice that:

"And when the dragon saw that he was cast into the earth , he persecuted the WOMAN [the Church] which brought forth the man child [the manifest sons of God]" (Rev. 12:13).

Where is the Church? Does she dwell in the spiritual realms of heaven? No. Is she located in the sea? No. She dwells in the earth. She is higher than the sea, but lower than heaven; she dwells in the earth. These are the three realms spoken of in Revelation. If we can’t get our thinking above the symbols themselves, we will never ever understand the book of Revelation.

The saints have left the earth in their spiritual walk with God. Those who are now ‘spiritually-minded;’ dwell in heaven—a much much higher realm than that of the earth. And yet… and YET, of the wild beast that comes out of the sea in Revelation 13, we are told:

"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle and them that [spiritually] dwell in heaven. And it was given unto Him [the wild beast] to make war with the saints, and TO OVERCOME THEM: and power was given him over ALL KINDREDS, AND TONGUES, AND NATIONS" (Verses 6-7).

Now maybe you don’t catch the significance of these verses. Here is a wild beast that not only has power, "…over ALL KINDREDS, and TONGUES, and NATIONS," but also can, "…make war with the SAINTS, and to OVERCOME THEM…" Is it possible for Satan to OVERCOME THE SAINTS? How can this be? Where? Show me?

"Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because GREATER is He [Jesus] that is in you, than he [Satan] that is in the world" (I John 4:4).

Does this verse sound like there is some wild beast OUT THERE somewhere, who can make a mockery of this verse, because this wild beast really can "…make war with the saints, and to OVERCOME them?" What ever happened to:

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. RESIST the devil, and he WILL FLEE FROM YOU" (James 4:7)?

Is there, OUT THERE SOMEWHERE, a power for evil that is even GREATER than Satan the Devil, himself? Why haven’t we been warned about him before we come to Rev. 13:7?

Did Jesus ever warn us of this wild beast? Did the apostles? Did Paul to the nations, warn of this evil power? How could the saints themselves, be deceived by this wild beast? I thought that the very elect of God CANNOT be deceived:

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, they shall deceive the very elect" (Matt. 24:24).

Ah, but it is NOT POSSIBLE to deceive the very elect! Will someone tell me what’s going on here with this wild beast?

WHO ARE THE SAINTS?

If the very elect can’t be deceived, is it possible for saints to be deceived? Yes, there is a difference. One can be a saint long before he becomes the VERY elect. Were the believers in Ephesus called, saints?

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS which are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1).

So, Yes, the believers in Ephesus were called saints. But were they perfect? Were they spiritually mature? Were they the VERY elect? No, they weren’t.

"Unto the angel of the church of EPHESUS write… I have somewhat [‘somewhat’ is not in the Greek texts] …I have against you, because you have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:1 & 4).

Is Jesus accusing the whole church at Ephesus of leaving their first love, if in reality, there were only a few? But there were NOT just a few—the WHOLE CHURCH of Ephesus "left their first love." And furthermore, since the Seven Churches are ONE CHURCH, THE WHOLE CHURCH left their first love! Believe it or not, leaving one’s first love, is part of the process of "going on to perfection" (Heb. 6:1).
v

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a GREAT voice, as of a trumpet" (Rev. 1:10).

What POSSIBLE thing could John have heard, that happened "BEHIND him," that was in the same league as the four GIANT events portrayed by the other four GREAT VOICES? What was it that John saw "BEHIND him" as he "stood upon the sand of the sea" and "saw a WILD BEAST rise up out of the sea?" What did this wild beast mean to John? What will it mean to the world? What should it mean to US?

Whatever this wild beast from the sea is, it is among the five greatest pronouncements that bring in the "end of the world" — the "consummation of the age."

This wild beast from the sea is the only thing in all Revelation that "makes war with the saints" AND "OVERCOME them." Seven times in Rev. 2 & 3 were are told to OVERCOME seven categories of sins. Yet here we read that it is the saints themselves that are overcome. Let’s make some sense out of all this.
v

We will ALL FALL! But afterwards, God "raises us UP AGAIN," and "makes us STAND." And from that time onward we have this sure promise of which we read before, but I want to read again:

"Now unto Him that is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to present you FAULTLESS before the presence of His glory with EXCEEDING JOY, To the Only Wise God Our Saviour, be glory and majesty, and dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 124-25)!

When John’s spiritual house built upon the sand fell down, he was left, standing on the sand of the sea by himself alone with God, and it is then and only then, that he is able to see the wild beast that came up out of the sea.

This wild beast is further identified in Rev. 13:14 when we are told this

"…beast, which had the wound [deadly wound, Ver. 3] by the sword, and DID LIVE."
v

II Thes. 2:3:

"Let no man [‘let not any person,’ RSV, ‘Let no ONE…’] deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin [Gk: the lawless one] be revealed, the son of perdition [Gk: the one destined for destruction]. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God [a god], or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God"

Whenever man builds his spiritual house upon the spiritual sand, his spiritual house will fall. And it is then that God reveals to him the wild beast that comes out of the sea. What does Paul tell us happens when there comes a ‘FALLING AWAY’ first? What follows? When our house on sand falls, what is then revealed? Why "the LAWLESS one" is "REVEALED." When the falling away occurs, then the man of sin, ‘the lawless one’ ‘the one destined for destruction’ is REVEALED.

And what a revelation it is! What a blast of the trumpet it is! What a shock to all humanity when at long last this wild beast is revealed to EVERYONE! Trust me when I tell you that it is a hard pill to swallow. It will shake you to your sandy foundation.

As I am now at the end of this Part XIII, I don’t want to close without revealing just who it is that constitutes the wild beast of Revelation 13 and the lawless one of II Thes. 2. I did title this Installment: Who is the Beast? And so I will tell you.

"So okay Ray, enough, TELL US WHO THE BEAST IS. Who? Tell us WHO?"

The "beast" is you!
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 10:44:24 PM by Kat »
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onelovedread

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Re: Elect
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2014, 12:05:06 PM »

Kat,
I'm not sure to whom your comments were addressed about arguing or contention.

I do notice though that for some, it's necessary to accompany the references to Ray's teachings, with their implications that others just don't get it and are not at the level to understand as they do. And then sometimes, the comments border on the arrogant and insulting.
 
I for one don't believe that the way to convince others is by beating them over the head and berating them.

I believe Ray wanted to point us to a deeper relationship with God, as we come into deeper revelation and understanding. I don't think he wanted us to be caught up in arguments over "endless genealogies", which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.
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octoberose

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Re: Elect
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2014, 10:27:55 PM »

I so often feel like a "bear with little brain" when it comes to Bible truths too big for me. I'm glad for the discussion though.
  One of the things I don't understand concerning the passages Kat quoted above from Ray is this:
 As I understand it Revelations talk about the church in Ephesus, however Ray goes on to sat it symbolizes the whole church and we All leave our first love. So, my quandary is, how is that related to Paul greeting the saints in Ephesus? Revelations is symbolic, a vision . Are they even the same church  we are talking about?   What do you all think?
 
 
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rick

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Re: Elect
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2014, 11:48:03 PM »

Quote
It just doesn't make sense to me to seek out an argument or to nitpick over minutia.

 :)
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santgem

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Re: Elect
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2014, 09:45:13 AM »

The truth is............

These elect are sinners before their conversion........... :)
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Craig

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Re: Elect
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2014, 10:35:37 AM »

The truth is............

These elect are sinners before their conversion........... :)


So then they are not sinners after their conversion?  Do you know have knowledge of anyone on the earth, save for Christ, who are elect or sins no more after their conversion?

I'm not busting your chops, I just wondered. 

The whole elect teaching is a doctrine that was really pushed by the WWCG.  I grew up Methodist and attended Baptist and Independent congregations for many years and the "Elect" doctrine was not pushed in these churches. The "rapture" "once saved always saved" and "save and pay" was though.  I think we put too much emphasis on this "elect" teaching. I have been on the forum longer than about anybody and in all these years there is none that I would suspect being an "elect" except possibly one, but I would not know anyway only God does.  We get so caught up worrying about words and the future we don't allow God and Christ to work in us now. 

"Elect"? Sure, if you think knowledge makes us special then everyone is elect. But knowledge and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee in most places.  Everyone in religion claims their knowledge is correct, they have scripture they use to support this; we are different though because we have the "Spirit".  Guess what people? All the other religious group makes the same claim.

All is of God, God is working in us to perfect us and knowledge is not all there is. 

So does anyone want to know what happens when we die or in the next age?  I will tell you and you can take this to the bank.  We don't know and we won't know until our time comes, when we become a spirit all the physical laws, thoughts and emotions are different, how can we attempt to explain this when we cannot even begin to fathom the spiritual realm???  We are like a bunch of ants trying to explain nuclear physics.

I am sad to say the forum is slowly becoming as much a church as the ones I left years ago.   :(

From one ant to the rest...
Craig
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 12:24:26 PM by Craig »
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Kat

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Re: Elect
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2014, 11:10:55 AM »


Craig, it's not that the elect cannot or do not sin, but they are the few that now have been lead to repentance and their sins are covered by the sacrifice of Christ.

Rom 4:7  "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
v. 8  blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."

1John 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.
v. 8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
v. 9  If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
v. 10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Rom 6:22  But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Hi octoberose,

Here are excerpts from the article 'The Seven Symbolic Churches of Revelation.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake7.html -------------------

A LITTLE HISTORY OF GOD’S CHURCH

There is great debate over when the Church of God really started. I don’t see the problem myself, because the first mention of "the Church" is in Acts 7:38 where we read: "This is He [Christ, I Cor. 10:4] that was in the church in the wilderness…" (Acts 7:38). That is the first historical identification of a "church" in the Bible.

As you are all aware, the church came from the wilderness and finally had a permanent home headquartered in the Temple in Jerusalem. But, was as it a holy, righteous, God fearing church? No, contraire.’ It was utterly corrupt.
v

Many things that the Church today aspires to are the very things that Paul repented of and called "dung."

The "Jew’s religion" as Paul called it was the true Church of God that settled in Jerusalem after coming out of Egypt and out of the Wilderness. But within a short generation after our Lord’s crucifixion and resurrection, the Church of God, at the temple in Jerusalem, came to an end. And to this day, there is no more sacrificing, there is no more a temple and there is no more a Levitic Priesthood.

Ironically, in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, "church" is mentioned in but two Scriptures. In Matt. 18:17 Jesus refers to "the church" and in Matt. 16:18 He refers to "My church" which He said HE would build. And the seven churches in Rev. 2 & 3 are representative of and the personification of the church that Jesus Christ built. It was THAT church that Jesus built, that Paul the Judaic Pharisee, persecuted. Jesus prophesied that the church would be persecuted and scattered:

"And Jesus said unto them, ALL YE shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, ‘I will smite the Shepherd [the Christ], and the sheep shall be SCATTERED" (Mark 14:27).

The church multiplied in numbers very quickly after the Resurrection, but persecution multiplied also:

SEVEN MEANS COMPLETE

The Sabbath or "seventh day" COMPLETES the week. Daniel’s famous prophecy was

"SEVENTY weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish [complete] the transgression, and to make an end [complete] of sins…" (Dan. 9:24).

Seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven plagues complete God’s wrath on mankind. Seven is used over six hundred times in Scriptures. Check if your wish, to see how many times seven shows completeness.

Therefore, how many churches complete THE WHOLE CHURCH OF GOD?

"…write in a book and send it unto the SEVEN churches which are in Asia…" (Rev. 1:11).

Were there not churches (congregations) also in Judea as well? Even in Rome? Why only the seven churches "in ASIA?" Because these seven congregations completed all that Jesus had to say to all congregations, everywhere. This is a COMPLETE revelation for ALL CHURCHES. These seven congregations had within them all of the sins, weaknesses, and shortcomings of all congregations everywhere during ALL TIME. I will make this abundantly and Scripturally clear. But on the positive side, all of the churches had at least a "few names" that were not spiritually defiled, and who will be in the first resurrection as Sons and Daughters of God to bring the rest of the harvest, the great fall harvest into the Kingdom.

These churches that personify in symbol all of God’s church for the past two thousand years, are in fact, the training ground and the proving ground for the elect. Coming out of this carnal system puts one among the called and the chosen and the VERY elect. Paul called it "the HIGH CALLING."

When you go through the messages to the seven churches, you will see a reiteration of the same problems in all the congregations.

It would take me twenty pages to reiterate all the similarities of both sins and rewards found in all seven church congregations, which represent the whole church of God throughout all generations. Here are just a few things that absolutely prove that these seven churches represent God’s complete church though all generations. This is not a dissected church divided up into particular or separate dispensations, ages, or eras.
v

ALL OVERCOMERS RECEIVE ALL REWARDS

The whole book of Revelation is a book about the LIFE OF JESUS written for:

"He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To HIM [any individual member of the churches] that OVERCOMES will I give to eat of the tree of life" (Rev. 2:7).

Is this the sole reward of "HIM that overcomes?" NO!

There’s more; there’s MUCH MORE:

"He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11).

"To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows saving he that receives it" (2:17).

"And he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations" (2:26).

"He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raimnent; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels" (3:5).

"Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him My new name" (3:11).

"To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in His throne" (3:21).

No, the overcomers in one congregation, in one generation, don’t get one reward, while the overcomers in a different congregation, in a different generation, gets a different reward. No, a thousand times, "NO"—the overcomers in ALL congregations, in ALL generations, get ALL these rewards. Therefore the prophecies to these churches are written for all the churches of God through all generations.

Perhaps ALL can rejoice over the good news concerning our grand rewards. However, there is a dark side to the Churches of God—darker than Darth Vader—darker than midnight! "What’s good for the goose is good for the gander" (I wonder how easily that translates into other languages).

Just as all the rewards are promised to all the overcomers in all generations of the Church, so likewise, do all the sins and shortcomings apply to all the churches throughout all generations. And the sins and shortcomings of God’s Church are monstrous!

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues. For her sins have REACHED UNTO HEAVEN, and God has remembered her iniquities" (Rev. 8:5).

Yes, God is talking about His people, who are in His church, but … BUT, who must nonetheless, "REPENT" (Rev. 2:5 & 5, 16, 21, 22, 3:3, 19—seven times, COMPLETE REPENTANCE), and "COME OUT OF HER." Coming out of her is no small part of this "repentance."
v

As long as people think what Jesus taught was physical, and material, and literal, then they will never understand. Were the parables given to enhance understanding? I speak as fool (read Matt. 13). Were the teachings of Jesus, temporary, physical, literal? Let Him answer:

"…the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are LIFE" (John 6:63)!

Parables have a SPIRITUAL meaning, and all of Christ’s teachings are SPIRITUAL. And that is because His very "words" ARE SPIRIT! Remember that Revelation is the "revelation OF Jesus Christ," it is HIS testimony. The "words" of His testimony are therefore, also, "SPIRIT."

So once again: "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says…" What "who" says? Just "who" is doing the speaking here in Revelation? "…hear what THE SPIRIT says…" It is "the SPIRIT" speaking to the churches, and the words being spoken are those of Jesus, which "words are SPIRIT," and "the LORD [Jesus Christ] is that SPIRIT…" (II Cor. 3:17).
----------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Rene

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Re: Elect
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2014, 02:18:46 PM »


I am sad to say the forum is slowly becoming as much a church as the ones I left years ago.   :(


Craig, 

I am sorry you feel this way.  I believe there is a good purpose for this forum , and for a "few"  members, it really has been a blessing. 8)
 
René
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rick

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Re: Elect
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2014, 03:11:15 PM »

 I can understand why God does not want any of the elect knowing they are the elect..........pride of knowledge usually leads to arrogant’s   .

A man can have everything but if he has no love he is only a clanging bell and nothing more.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 03:15:05 PM by Rick »
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Elect
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2014, 03:51:36 PM »

The idea of the Elect is not just an idea of one of the denominations of the false church.

It is taught in the Scriptures and thus is from God.

I quickly checked a concordance and found 17 references to the Elect in the Scriptures.

One example is "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..." 1Peter 1:1

Thus God knew the Elect in advance, before Creation.

According as he has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.  Eph 1:4
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Elect
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2014, 04:00:23 PM »

People need to chill a little.

Sometimes people use strong language in discussing something important to them.

Those who follow this Way of God, find God and the solid truths in His Scriptures to be all important.

At the conference in Jerusalem, the Apostles and members in attendance had strong words to say.  And when they had been much disputing... Acts 15:7  Not just disputing, but much disputing.

Also, Paul got in Peter's face over a dispute between themselves.  "withstood him to the face." Gal 2:11
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rick

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Re: Elect
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2014, 06:40:44 PM »

Not sure what all the emphasis on God hating sin as well as the sinner, it does not take a rocket scientist to understand we hate a person because of what they do, how does one separate the sin from the sinner?

So God hate all sinners but this hatred is only for a season, and when the season ends so won’t Gods hatred towards all sinners.

If your numbered as one of the elect, you had nothing to do with this calling, or if your numbered with all the sinners, you had nothing to do with that calling, for the creature was made in vanity not willingly but by reason of God.

Even the elect are the elect by reason of God and only by reason of God, the elect of God are nothing special on their own or by their own merit or outside of or away from God.

So what about the good news of the bible ? Is it only for the elect ? Maybe you might say yes, its only for the elect but is it only for the elect throughout the ages ?  God  forbid .

The good news is for everyone because Jesus really is the savior of the world especially of those who believe. 

Paul the apostle claimed to be the worlds worst sinner, Jesus saved Paul and He will save all others because Jesus does not fail at anything He does...And that’s Gods promise to all..for the creature was subjected in hope. This is awesome news to me, especially me...Oh how sweet the sound.  :)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 06:46:17 PM by Rick »
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Patric

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Re: Elect
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2014, 09:49:09 PM »

Amen......to those whom have eyes they shall see.....to those whom have ears.....let them hear....and to those who are dead.....shall be alive and yet born again.....resurrection is a good thing! Yes good news :)
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Mike Gagne

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Re: Elect
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2014, 01:43:33 AM »

May blessing (praise, laudation, and eulogy) be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual (given by the Holy Spirit) blessing in the heavenly realm! Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, even above reproach, before Him in love. For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [because it pleased Him and was His kind intent]– (Ephesians 1:3-5 AMP) I think I see that his elect were born elect, and the real conversion happens at the first resurrection!   Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on in corruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:50-53 KJV) and that the elects time on earth is for there training ,   Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (1 Corinthians 3:13 KJV) I asked the question  about when the elect become the elect because, I had no point of reference when it happened. I had a road to Damascus experience, I seen Gods light and not in the natural. Then I am sure that I left my first love and then did my years in the Church and also had my (Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJV ) experience, and then God granted me repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.  All the truths that God was opening my eyes to through LRays teachings in the LOF series made me see that I might be apart of this first fruit group. But in my mind I had to have a starting point,or a place that seemed like a conversion? But through the order it happened in my life I now see that if I am apart of the first fruits company then I had to be chosen in Him before the creation of the world and was born destined for his purpose....Thanks for all the great replies they have been a great help, and if I am wrong God will reveal his truth! Like LRay said , we won't know until the first resurrection! But God knows, Glory to God!!
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 03:25:04 AM by Mike Gagne »
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santgem

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Re: Elect
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2014, 06:16:30 AM »

The truth is............

These elect are sinners before their conversion........... :)


So then they are not sinners after their conversion?  Do you know have knowledge of anyone on the earth, save for Christ, who are elect or sins no more after their conversion?

I'm not busting your chops, I just wondered. 

The whole elect teaching is a doctrine that was really pushed by the WWCG.  I grew up Methodist and attended Baptist and Independent congregations for many years and the "Elect" doctrine was not pushed in these churches. The "rapture" "once saved always saved" and "save and pay" was though.  I think we put too much emphasis on this "elect" teaching. I have been on the forum longer than about anybody and in all these years there is none that I would suspect being an "elect" except possibly one, but I would not know anyway only God does.  We get so caught up worrying about words and the future we don't allow God and Christ to work in us now. 

"Elect"? Sure, if you think knowledge makes us special then everyone is elect. But knowledge and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee in most places.  Everyone in religion claims their knowledge is correct, they have scripture they use to support this; we are different though because we have the "Spirit".  Guess what people? All the other religious group makes the same claim.

All is of God, God is working in us to perfect us and knowledge is not all there is. 

So does anyone want to know what happens when we die or in the next age?  I will tell you and you can take this to the bank.  We don't know and we won't know until our time comes, when we become a spirit all the physical laws, thoughts and emotions are different, how can we attempt to explain this when we cannot even begin to fathom the spiritual realm???  We are like a bunch of ants trying to explain nuclear physics.

I am sad to say the forum is slowly becoming as much a church as the ones I left years ago.   :(

From one ant to the rest...
Craig






Sin shall not have dominion over to the elect ;)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 07:02:52 AM by santgem »
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