> General Discussions
Elect
arion:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on April 11, 2014, 06:42:48 PM ---
O.K. Arion, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I believe the term "saint" refers to the called and chosen.
The Spirit of God is not with those called into the great false church, where Satan is their leader.
--- End quote ---
WHO ARE THE SAINTS?
If the very elect can’t be deceived, is it possible for saints to be deceived? Yes, there is a difference. One can be a saint long before he becomes the VERY elect. Were the believers in Ephesus called, saints?
"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS which are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1).
So, Yes, the believers in Ephesus were called saints. But were they perfect? Were they spiritually mature? Were they the VERY elect? No, they weren’t.
"Unto the angel of the church of EPHESUS write… I have somewhat [‘somewhat’ is not in the Greek texts] …I have against you, because you have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:1 & 4).
Is Jesus accusing the whole church at Ephesus of leaving their first love, if in reality, there were only a few? But there were NOT just a few—the WHOLE CHURCH of Ephesus "left their first love." And furthermore, since the Seven Churches are ONE CHURCH, THE WHOLE CHURCH left their first love! Believe it or not, leaving one’s first love, is part of the process of "going on to perfection" (Heb. 6:1).
continued......
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html
John from Kentucky:
--- Quote from: Arion on April 12, 2014, 08:25:52 AM ---
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on April 11, 2014, 06:42:48 PM ---
O.K. Arion, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I believe the term "saint" refers to the called and chosen.
The Spirit of God is not with those called into the great false church, where Satan is their leader.
--- End quote ---
WHO ARE THE SAINTS?
If the very elect can’t be deceived, is it possible for saints to be deceived? Yes, there is a difference. One can be a saint long before he becomes the VERY elect. Were the believers in Ephesus called, saints?
"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS which are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1).
So, Yes, the believers in Ephesus were called saints. But were they perfect? Were they spiritually mature? Were they the VERY elect? No, they weren’t.
"Unto the angel of the church of EPHESUS write… I have somewhat [‘somewhat’ is not in the Greek texts] …I have against you, because you have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:1 & 4).
Is Jesus accusing the whole church at Ephesus of leaving their first love, if in reality, there were only a few? But there were NOT just a few—the WHOLE CHURCH of Ephesus "left their first love." And furthermore, since the Seven Churches are ONE CHURCH, THE WHOLE CHURCH left their first love! Believe it or not, leaving one’s first love, is part of the process of "going on to perfection" (Heb. 6:1).
continued......
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html
--- End quote ---
The English word "saint" is from the Greek word "hagios". The Greek word "hagios" means holy, reverent, set apart and applicable to God.
For example in the name Holy Spirit, the translation Holy is from the Greek "Hagios". See Matt. 1:18; the reference to Holy Spirit, the Holy is "Hagios". And there are many Scriptures where it is the Holy (Hagios) Spirit.
Therefore, based upon the association of the word "hagios", holy or saint, I do not believe it applies to every member of the Christian Churches throughout the ages.
Only the Elect, the small chosen few, will be gathered to Jesus at the 1st Resurrection; the rest will be burned (symbolically).
In Eph 1:1, is the term saints referring to the whole church at Ephesus, or a subset, a few who are saints, holy to God? I don't think that one verse is absolutely clear on that one point.
The seven churches in Revelation are not referring to the literal seven churches in Asia Minor at that time. Revelation is all written in symbolic language. Those seven churches are symbolic churches, which represent the one Church throughout the ages. Even then, only a few, the saints, the holy ones dedicated to God, are saved in the 1st Resurrection.
Lets cut through all the crap and get to the truth. The Scriptures speaks of the Two Witnesses; in the mouth of two witnesses let every word be established.
Present your two Scriptures that clearly state that the word saint (hagios) refers to all the called into the church and not just the called and chosen (the Elect).
No cheating. Don't try to fit an unrelated verse into the discussion and tell me that it is a fit. I can tell. You can't fool a Corleone. :D
arion:
...Lets cut through all the crap and get to the truth.
Well,
I don't think any of this is 'crap' but be that as it may, your addressing this to me but Ray wrote the piece and Ray isn't here to speak for himself and I have no intention to sit here and argue with you or parse words as it doesn't bear any fruit and I'm not seeking a point of contention with you either. Ray stated it very well here I think
'So, Yes, the believers in Ephesus were called saints. But were they perfect? Were they spiritually mature? Were they the VERY elect? No, they weren’t.'
If you stumble over the word saints and want to call them just 'believers', 'followers' or 'the called' but not the chosen or the churchgoers standing on the sand of the sea but not the very elect of God I have no problem with any of that. It just doesn't make sense to me to seek out an argument or to nitpick over minutia. And to keep this from spiraling downhill this will be my last post on this thread.
Take care..
Dennis Vogel:
--- Quote --- It just doesn't make sense to me to seek out an argument or to nitpick over minutia.
--- End quote ---
:)
onelovedread:
Well according to Paul, at least one church knew they were elect:
1 Thessalonians 1:3 unceasingly remembering of you the work of the faith, and the labour of the love, and the endurance of the hope, of our Lord Jesus Christ, in the presence of our God and Father, 4 having known, brethren beloved, by God, your election, (Young's Literal Translation)
Rotherham's Emphasized
3 Unceasingly, remembering—your work of faith and labour of love and endurance of hope, of our Lord Jesus Christ, before our God and Father: 4. Knowing, brethren beloved by God, your election
Concordant
4 Having perceived, brethren beloved by God, your choice.
New King James Version
3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father, 4. knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.
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