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Elect
Kat:
Well I can't see why a topic cannot be discussed without arguing and contention. Arion brings out an interesting point about the saints from Ephesians 1 with a comment of Ray's, and I want to understand what Ray was saying there better. So as I read back over the article it became clear, in Revelation 12-13 it speaks of a the "beast" and "it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them" (Rev 13:6). Ray was explaining the point of how it was possible for the saints to be overcome at all.
So what I understand is that the saints are the elect (or better put, will be), Paul makes it clear in the rest of Ephesians 1.
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus.
v. 2 Grace be to you, and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
v. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ;
v. 4 according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
v. 5 having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
v. 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the One having been loved.
But as Ray brought out there is a difference... it appears that the saints are God's chosen 'before' the Holy Spirit is indwelling, therefore they are still worldly and are deceived/overcome. It's only after the Spirit enters a person do they become "the very elect" and cannot be deceived any longer (Matt 24:24) and I think that is what Ray was bringing out.
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html ------------------------
Next notice that:
"And when the dragon saw that he was cast into the earth , he persecuted the WOMAN [the Church] which brought forth the man child [the manifest sons of God]" (Rev. 12:13).
Where is the Church? Does she dwell in the spiritual realms of heaven? No. Is she located in the sea? No. She dwells in the earth. She is higher than the sea, but lower than heaven; she dwells in the earth. These are the three realms spoken of in Revelation. If we can’t get our thinking above the symbols themselves, we will never ever understand the book of Revelation.
The saints have left the earth in their spiritual walk with God. Those who are now ‘spiritually-minded;’ dwell in heaven—a much much higher realm than that of the earth. And yet… and YET, of the wild beast that comes out of the sea in Revelation 13, we are told:
"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle and them that [spiritually] dwell in heaven. And it was given unto Him [the wild beast] to make war with the saints, and TO OVERCOME THEM: and power was given him over ALL KINDREDS, AND TONGUES, AND NATIONS" (Verses 6-7).
Now maybe you don’t catch the significance of these verses. Here is a wild beast that not only has power, "…over ALL KINDREDS, and TONGUES, and NATIONS," but also can, "…make war with the SAINTS, and to OVERCOME THEM…" Is it possible for Satan to OVERCOME THE SAINTS? How can this be? Where? Show me?
"Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because GREATER is He [Jesus] that is in you, than he [Satan] that is in the world" (I John 4:4).
Does this verse sound like there is some wild beast OUT THERE somewhere, who can make a mockery of this verse, because this wild beast really can "…make war with the saints, and to OVERCOME them?" What ever happened to:
"Submit yourselves therefore to God. RESIST the devil, and he WILL FLEE FROM YOU" (James 4:7)?
Is there, OUT THERE SOMEWHERE, a power for evil that is even GREATER than Satan the Devil, himself? Why haven’t we been warned about him before we come to Rev. 13:7?
Did Jesus ever warn us of this wild beast? Did the apostles? Did Paul to the nations, warn of this evil power? How could the saints themselves, be deceived by this wild beast? I thought that the very elect of God CANNOT be deceived:
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, they shall deceive the very elect" (Matt. 24:24).
Ah, but it is NOT POSSIBLE to deceive the very elect! Will someone tell me what’s going on here with this wild beast?
WHO ARE THE SAINTS?
If the very elect can’t be deceived, is it possible for saints to be deceived? Yes, there is a difference. One can be a saint long before he becomes the VERY elect. Were the believers in Ephesus called, saints?
"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS which are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1).
So, Yes, the believers in Ephesus were called saints. But were they perfect? Were they spiritually mature? Were they the VERY elect? No, they weren’t.
"Unto the angel of the church of EPHESUS write… I have somewhat [‘somewhat’ is not in the Greek texts] …I have against you, because you have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:1 & 4).
Is Jesus accusing the whole church at Ephesus of leaving their first love, if in reality, there were only a few? But there were NOT just a few—the WHOLE CHURCH of Ephesus "left their first love." And furthermore, since the Seven Churches are ONE CHURCH, THE WHOLE CHURCH left their first love! Believe it or not, leaving one’s first love, is part of the process of "going on to perfection" (Heb. 6:1).
v
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a GREAT voice, as of a trumpet" (Rev. 1:10).
What POSSIBLE thing could John have heard, that happened "BEHIND him," that was in the same league as the four GIANT events portrayed by the other four GREAT VOICES? What was it that John saw "BEHIND him" as he "stood upon the sand of the sea" and "saw a WILD BEAST rise up out of the sea?" What did this wild beast mean to John? What will it mean to the world? What should it mean to US?
Whatever this wild beast from the sea is, it is among the five greatest pronouncements that bring in the "end of the world" — the "consummation of the age."
This wild beast from the sea is the only thing in all Revelation that "makes war with the saints" AND "OVERCOME them." Seven times in Rev. 2 & 3 were are told to OVERCOME seven categories of sins. Yet here we read that it is the saints themselves that are overcome. Let’s make some sense out of all this.
v
We will ALL FALL! But afterwards, God "raises us UP AGAIN," and "makes us STAND." And from that time onward we have this sure promise of which we read before, but I want to read again:
"Now unto Him that is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to present you FAULTLESS before the presence of His glory with EXCEEDING JOY, To the Only Wise God Our Saviour, be glory and majesty, and dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 124-25)!
When John’s spiritual house built upon the sand fell down, he was left, standing on the sand of the sea by himself alone with God, and it is then and only then, that he is able to see the wild beast that came up out of the sea.
This wild beast is further identified in Rev. 13:14 when we are told this
"…beast, which had the wound [deadly wound, Ver. 3] by the sword, and DID LIVE."
v
II Thes. 2:3:
"Let no man [‘let not any person,’ RSV, ‘Let no ONE…’] deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin [Gk: the lawless one] be revealed, the son of perdition [Gk: the one destined for destruction]. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God [a god], or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God"
Whenever man builds his spiritual house upon the spiritual sand, his spiritual house will fall. And it is then that God reveals to him the wild beast that comes out of the sea. What does Paul tell us happens when there comes a ‘FALLING AWAY’ first? What follows? When our house on sand falls, what is then revealed? Why "the LAWLESS one" is "REVEALED." When the falling away occurs, then the man of sin, ‘the lawless one’ ‘the one destined for destruction’ is REVEALED.
And what a revelation it is! What a blast of the trumpet it is! What a shock to all humanity when at long last this wild beast is revealed to EVERYONE! Trust me when I tell you that it is a hard pill to swallow. It will shake you to your sandy foundation.
As I am now at the end of this Part XIII, I don’t want to close without revealing just who it is that constitutes the wild beast of Revelation 13 and the lawless one of II Thes. 2. I did title this Installment: Who is the Beast? And so I will tell you.
"So okay Ray, enough, TELL US WHO THE BEAST IS. Who? Tell us WHO?"
The "beast" is you!
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
onelovedread:
Kat,
I'm not sure to whom your comments were addressed about arguing or contention.
I do notice though that for some, it's necessary to accompany the references to Ray's teachings, with their implications that others just don't get it and are not at the level to understand as they do. And then sometimes, the comments border on the arrogant and insulting.
I for one don't believe that the way to convince others is by beating them over the head and berating them.
I believe Ray wanted to point us to a deeper relationship with God, as we come into deeper revelation and understanding. I don't think he wanted us to be caught up in arguments over "endless genealogies", which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.
octoberose:
I so often feel like a "bear with little brain" when it comes to Bible truths too big for me. I'm glad for the discussion though.
One of the things I don't understand concerning the passages Kat quoted above from Ray is this:
As I understand it Revelations talk about the church in Ephesus, however Ray goes on to sat it symbolizes the whole church and we All leave our first love. So, my quandary is, how is that related to Paul greeting the saints in Ephesus? Revelations is symbolic, a vision . Are they even the same church we are talking about? What do you all think?
rick:
--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on April 12, 2014, 07:55:13 PM ---
--- Quote --- It just doesn't make sense to me to seek out an argument or to nitpick over minutia.
--- End quote ---
:)
--- End quote ---
santgem:
The truth is............
These elect are sinners before their conversion........... :)
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