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[Dave in Tenn]

Paul wrote:  2Ti 2:9  Wherein I suffer trouble, like an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.  Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

That the elect (those chosen) may also obtain the salvation (salvation from what?) which is in Christ Jesus, with age-abiding glory.  Hmmm.

Wasn't the Lord Jesus Himself 'saved'?  Saved from what?  Death?  Was He "saved" from death before he died? 

I'll ask another question, since we are also to be "saved from sin".  Was the Lord Jesus saved from sin?  How can a man who never sinned be "saved from sin"?  There's a way to be "saved from sin" without ever having sinned.  Indeed, it is the BEST way to be saved from sin.

Was He "saved" from anything else?  After all, He is the MOST CHOSEN of anything that's ever been chosen.

I've been struggling to stop slinging "bible-words" around as if I know what they mean when what I "think they mean" is the definition I learned in babylon.  "Election" is not a theological word...it's a word.  SOMEONE does the "electing" and someone else is the one "elected".  As often as not, it is translated "chosen", as in "...many are called, few are chosen."  Someone chooses, and something is chosen.

How about some 'journalistic' questions?  Who, what, when, where and why?  Who chooses?  What is chosen?  When is it chosen (the subject of the OP)?  'Where' may be a bit of a stretch, but we know where Paul was "chosen".  Why is it chosen?  Does the Chooser tell us anything?  Anything at all?   


 

[Dave in Tenn]

IS 'the elect' an 'office'?  Will it ever be?  Why is it not mentioned among the various 'gifts' and 'ministries'? 

Is 'the elect' the first-fruit?  What's good about being first?  What does it mean to be 'first'?  If you want to be 'first' how do you go about it?  Does it do any good to want to be first?

[rick]

Excellent questions Dave,

Jesus said , those who are first shall be last and those who are last shall be first. He also said those who want to be great must be a servant..... not a direct quote..Lol but does not change the meaning .

Seems to me the wisdom of God is the apposite of mans in every way.

[Kat]

Hi Dave,

Wasn't the Lord Jesus Himself 'saved'?  Saved from what?  Death?  Was He "saved" from death before he died?

I don't think you could say Jesus Christ was 'saved,' He is the Savior (Luke 2:11; Eph 5:23; 2Peter 1:1 and many more). He came as the Savior of the lost, He was never lost.

Mat 18:11  For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

Luke 19:10  For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.

IS 'the elect' an 'office'?  Will it ever be?  Why is it not mentioned among the various 'gifts' and 'ministries'? 

I think the word 'elect' is used just like 'chosen' is and represents the person, not just a gift in the person. It shows that God has separated them out as one of a few from the rest of humanity and sanctified them for His service.

1Cor 6:11  ...But you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Is 'the elect' the first-fruit?  What's good about being first?  What does it mean to be 'first'?  If you want to be 'first' how do you go about it?  Does it do any good to want to be first?

Not 'the' first-fruit, that is Jesus Christ.

1Co 15:23  But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

But the elect are first among the people of this world, first-fruits through Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:4  It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,

I think anybody should want to be first, it means being brought up out of this carnal cesspool, the sooner the better. But most importantly it is being used in God's service to help the rest of mankind reach salvation, it's a position only a few will ever have.

But we cannot choose to be an elect, God determined that in the beginning when determining His plan for this creation. But when a person has their eyes opened to the truth of God's plan and who the elect are, then it should be a very joyous hope that we could be an elect of God. It is a long hard race, but at least we know there is a race and we are in it 

1Cor 9:23  I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
v. 24  Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[santgem]

Those elect that are sinners before, and after their conversion is now in Christ.


Romans 8

New American Standard Bible
Deliverance from Bondage

      1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
      9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 
    12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

      18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.



Our Victory in Christ

      26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 
    28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
      31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
            “FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
            WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”


37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.






So therefore if you are in Christ

Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.2Co 5:17



Whereas if the elect to be, if they are still sinners and continuing to sin and without enduring to the end and not stopping to become sinners, then they are not the so called  ELECT, because......


For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversariesHeb 10:26-27

[Mike Gagne]

Amen Kat        Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: (Philippians 3:13-20 KJV).        I also believe those who are chosen for this high calling don't sin willingly, I guess that's for another post!!   

[Dave in Tenn]

Kat, Ray taught that Jesus Christ was 'lost'.  But neither he nor scripture mean it like I've heard it all my life in church.

I'm aware that there are those teaching that Jesus was a sinner.  Scripture squashes that for anybody without an idol of the heart to worship.  But Jesus did DIE, according to Scripture, and he was 'saved' from death in resurrection.

While there may not be a 'verse' that says Jesus was saved from sin (and many other things), there is a multitude of examples where He who did not sin was 'saved' from sin (and many other things).  But not in a way that means the same thing I've heard all my life in church.  As I've said before, I am not interested in the least in 'that kind' of "salvation".

If He is to be my example, then in the fullness of time, I'm going to follow Him.  No theological hoodoo, no religious assumption, no contradictory doctrinal understanding.  I'm going to be saved (as in many ways I have already been saved) from all the things He was saved from...He who did not do or say ANYTHING apart from what His Father gave Him to say or do...who said of Himself, "of my own self, I can do nothing."

Examples?

Saved from Herod as an infant or toddler
Saved from Satan in the Wilderness
Saved from caving in to all manner of temptation (tempted in all points like as we, yet without sin)
Saved from the mob
Saved from the Scribes and Pharisees.
Saved from death.

There were also things He wasn't 'saved from', most notably dying  Add being tempted, suffering, losing friends, the pain that comes from wisdom, unrequited love, and others.

I also don't want to have strife over words, but the way I've ended it in my own life is to try hard to understand them without theological baggage or preachers talking in my head.  For a few of them (those pesky bible-words), at least, I've been saved already.  Thanks, Ray.

I asked those questions out loud because those are the kinds of questions I've been asking in meditation.  If they have been worth asking, they already have answers. 


   

[Rene]

Kat, Ray taught that Jesus Christ was 'lost'.  But neither he nor scripture mean it like I've heard it all my life in church.
 

Dave,

I've been thinking about this statement since you posted it yesterday and I just do not know what you are referring to.  Where did Ray teach this? 

René

[Dave in Tenn]

I'll surrender.  I really didn't think I was introducing some bizarre new doctrine.  If Jesus being raised from the dead isn't being 'saved' from being 'appolumi' (lost, destroyed), then I don't know what it is.

If Jesus being tempted in all points like as we, yet without sin isn't being 'saved' from sin, then I don't know what salvation means.  I just know it isn't some spiritual mustard that gets smeared on us before we can "go to heaven".  As thanklful as I am for forgiveness and mercy, it's the only "salvation" that matters to me from this point forward, as I can't change the past.  I want, like He was, to be empowered, graced, influenced, 'caused' not to sin.  And I'm a large part hypocrite even to make THAT statement, because there are plenty of times I DON'T want that.  I'm still being 'dragged'.

I'd delete my comments to stop any confusion, but they'd still be there in the quotes and "look" far worse than I ever imagined and certainly intended.  Feel free to clean it up any way you see fit, or not. 

[Dave in Tenn]

From "23 minutes in Hell":

The Greek word "appolumi" has three basic meanings: "lose, perish, or destroy." Context can tell which of these three is most appropriate, however, context seldom defines the meaning or definition of a word. Here are a few examples:

LOSE/LOST from "appolumi" - The salt in Matt. 5:13, "lost" its flavor. The "lost" sheep in the wilderness that wondered from the 99 sheep was "found" (Luke 15:6). The prodigal Son of Luke 16:24, "...was dead, and is alive again; he was lost and is found." There is nothing "eternal" in the use of this word.

PERISH from "appolumi" - The Apostles were afraid they would "perish" in the sea (Matt. 8:25). Jesus taught in Luke 5:37 that new wine would cause old wine skins to "perish." In Luke 13:33, Jesus spoke of Himself when He said that a prophet cannot "perish" outside of Jerusalem. Jesus was that Prophet, that did "perish" - was crucified and killed IN Jerusalem.

DESTROY/DESTRUCTION from "appolumi" - In Matt. 2:13 Joseph is warned to take Jesus to Egypt, because Herod wanted to "destroy" Him. The Pharisees persuaded the Jews to save Barabbas and "destroy" Jesus (Matt. 27:20). And they later did "destroy"--crucify, kill, Jesus. In Luke 9:56, Jesus said:

"For the Son of man is not come to destroy [Gk: appolumi--destroy, lose, perish] men's lives, but to save them."

[Rene]

Kat, Ray taught that Jesus Christ was 'lost'.  But neither he nor scripture mean it like I've heard it all my life in church.
 

Dave,

I've been thinking about this statement since you posted it yesterday and I just do not know what you are referring to.  Where did Ray teach this? 

René

Sorry, Dave.  I still don't get it.  Can you post the link to the lesson where Ray taught this?  I'm just trying to see where you got this from. That's all.

René

[Dave in Tenn]

Sometimes all the questions I have come spilling out like a diet coke with mentos. 

The MAIN thing I wanted to share was in answer, however. 

Paul wrote:  2Ti 2:9  Wherein I suffer trouble, like an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.  Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Paul is talking about 'the elect' saying that they 'may also obtain the 'salvation' which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.  "Election" is not 'salvation' if Paul is 'enduring all things' for the elect's sake IN ORDER THAT they may also obtain the salvation...

And that is what set me off trying my puny best to get a few folks to shake off the cobwebs of religious jargon.  How are we going to understand THAT verse if we don't understand what 'the elect' and 'salvation' is?  And yet I know even as I type this that it will raise more questions than it answers.  Oh well, the truths of God are deeper than the surface.  I learned that from Ray too.    

[Dave in Tenn]

Rene, it's in the my post directly above yours.  I'll go back and bold it.

OK...although I put 'lost' in quotation marks, I admit that Ray did not say it as I said it.  He chose his words more carefully than I did and, although the Scripture wasn't written in English, I misquoted Ray.

No, I did more than 'misquote him'.  I misrepresented what he said with that statement.   

Do what you want.

[santgem]

Rene, it's in the my post directly above yours.  I'll go back and bold it.

OK...although I put 'lost' in quotation marks, I admit that Ray did not say it as I said it.  He chose his words more carefully than I did and, although the Scripture wasn't written in English, I misquoted Ray.

No, I did more than 'misquote him'.  I misrepresented what he said with that statement.   

Do what you want.

Brave enough.................Salute!