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[John from Kentucky]

The bible says Satan will deceive the whole world, people are deceived. If we consider them our enemy let us not forget God tells us to love our enemies, love not hate.

Love speaks no ill, all these people one day will be our brothers and sisters , be not deceived about this fact of God.

God hates sins and sinners.  And He doesn't have good things to say about certain sins and sinners.  You need to educate yourself on these matters.

Study this article of Ray's.  It might help your understanding.  http://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm

[lareli]

That's an awesome link you provided JFK, thanks! I hadn't read that one yet and it makes me love john hagee even more now!

Rick amen to your last post, love your enemy indeed! Not for who they are today but for who they will be by Gods glorious will for all! God bless John Hagee and carry out His perfect will for that brothers life!

[John from Kentucky]

That's an awesome link you provided JFK, thanks! I hadn't read that one yet and it makes me love john hagee even more now!

Rick amen to your last post, love your enemy indeed! Not for who they are today but for who they will be by Gods glorious will for all! God bless John Hagee and carry out His perfect will for that brothers life!

Go ahead, mock the Scriptures Ray quoted in that article. 

I'd advise you to tread softly before praising christian ministers.  Even a superficial reading of the Gospels should inform you that Jesus had His greatest criticism and anger toward false religious teachers.  It really set Him off.

So, be with those whom God is against.  Enjoy the lesson.

[cjwood]

don't think largeli is praising the christian ministers.  i took away from his post that he was praising God the Father's plan through Christ Jesus to save even these ministers.  don't think he is mocking ray in any way.  looks like he is honoring what Jesus said.  love your enemies.  as He loved.  eventhough He railed down on them in His time.

just sayin.
claudia

[lareli]

I am not mocking anyone.. I read the link and it says that John Hagee as well as John from Kentucky and also Largeli are all related to God. Not figuratively or metaphorically. Actually descendants of The Creator God. Actual kin and family of God. John Hagee has been created in the image of God and I will love John Hagee if only for that reason. I will love him as myself and I forgive him also !

I read the link you provided and it encouraged me to love. If you read the paper and you feel encouraged to hate... Than I would suggest an examining of your own heart.

[Rhys 🕊]

Here is a post how Ray treated these religious leaders

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2973.msg21965.html#msg21965

A quote from it:

You suggest that I "BASH" those whom I expose on our site. Okay, if you like that word, however, I use the word "expose" at the top of our home page.  Actually, my "exposing" is in "love," contrary to what you may think otherwise. Most Christians of the world have not a clue as to Who Jesus was and how He taught and "exposed" the two-faced, lying hypocritical Church Leaders of His day.


And this one showed his approach to Hagee:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3361.msg25004.html#msg25004

A passage from it:

Theologians had not yet decided to deceive the dumb sheep to believe in "ENDLESS ages" (a concept totally foreign to the Scriptures). And what does it matter? What does it matter that heretics like Hagee teach boys and girls that God is going to torture inhumanely most of the human race INCLUDING BOYS AND GIRLS for trillions and trillions and trillion and trillions of quadrillions of for evers and evers and evers and evers, all the while their eyes are melting out of their heads and their brains are cooking like bacon over white heat for trillions and trillions of forevers and forevers and forevers........................  Yes, what does that really matter?  What does it matter that he sells movies of such utter spiritual pornography on public TV, and has little children viewing this utter spiritual and religious FILTH? The sad thing is that some of his followers are almost as sick in mind, spirit, and soul, as Hagee himself. Maybe you need to wake up, Angela, and smell the stench of such religious rot diseasing the minds of the people.  Mine is a just and Scriptural cause.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6903.msg55031.html#msg55031

From: Geneva
do you hate all good preachers?You need to get to the new testament.your kind takes me back to all the hypocrites who made me feel like GOD was waiting with a big stick to hit me every time I moved John Hagee is my pastor and I was disgusted to hear you speak evil of him "jealous"

 
Dear Geneva: I have never spoken "evil" of John Hagee. That is not true. John Hagee teaches "damnable heresy" (II Pet. 2:1), but I have never accused Mr. Hagee of being evil, have I?  If you read my critique of Mr. Hagee's sermon on "The Seven Wonders of Hell," then you know more specifically which damnable heresies I am speaking of.  Be sure to read my paper: "Is EVERLASTING Scriptural."  John Hagee teaches: "...EVERY BOY, AND EVERY GIRL who dies without knowing Jesus Christ spends an eternity in a city where the fire is never quenched and the worm dieth not." (Statement is Mr. Hagee's; all caps are mine).
 
Now that, Geneva, is "disgusting" to use your word.  Mr. Hagee will bitterly repent of those damnable words, ONE DAY.  And you can take that to the bank.
God be with you,
Ray
PS   Maybe you would benefit more by reading my "Lake of Fire" series, and learn what the real Judgments of God are all about.

Ray exposed him and others for what they taught just as Jesus did. It's not about hate but if you can see you will understand it'a all about love. Jesus attacked the religious leaders of his day by standing up for the truth and it is for love that He did so.


Rhys

[John from Kentucky]

I am not mocking anyone.. I read the link and it says that John Hagee as well as John from Kentucky and also Largeli are all related to God. Not figuratively or metaphorically. Actually descendants of The Creator God. Actual kin and family of God. John Hagee has been created in the image of God and I will love John Hagee if only for that reason. I will love him as myself and I forgive him also !

I read the link you provided and it encouraged me to love. If you read the paper and you feel encouraged to hate... Than I would suggest an examining of your own heart.

You lack understanding of basic Scriptural teachings, for example the meaning of "love".

Maybe this article will help.  Follow the Scriptures.  Not what are the false teachings of the Great False Church that Jesus tells us, "Come out of her My people".

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.0.html

[rick]

God created all things, if God chooses to hate the sinner as well as the sin, that’s Gods prerogative, He’s God. Nowhere in the bible have I found where God tells me to hate anyone.

I do see I’m told not to sit in the council of the ungodly, I’m told to love my enemies and also ask to forgive all who offend me.

Just because I know spiritual truths that others may not know at this point in time does not make me better than another and besides any truth I do know is because God open my eyes to that truth.

God is no respecter of persons, we are all sinners and should be humble and thankful God has chosen us/we to understand some truths in this life. What good is all our knowledge if we don’t have love towards one another but what about those who are the enemies of the cross right now?

What scripture tells me to hate them, make fun of them, laugh at them, mock them or be cruel to them?
 
Jesus said, forgive them father they know not what they do. Why do they know not what they do?  Because they are deceived and they are deceived because they have a veil over their eyes but one day that veil shall be removed.

I think I have a pretty good understanding of God’s plan of salvation for all and as much truth as there is on this website God has so much more truth, in fact who can search the depth of God ?

[John from Kentucky]

Like talking to a block of wood.

As it has been said before, the most you can do is point people to the articles and multiple Scriptures contained therein.  Only God can give understanding.

[cjwood]

Just because I know spiritual truths that others may not know at this point in time does not make me better than another and besides any truth I do know is because God open my eyes to that truth.




and that's what it's all about really.  no man on earth is above another.  except for Jesus when He walked this earth, and He put on no airs.  and He is our King of Kings.   

claudia

[rick]

Nearly every e-mail I read of Rays allowed me to see that Ray was a patient man in dealing with people who outright mocked him as well as cursed him.

I never saw Ray as a condescending man in any of his replies nor did he give his readers the impression of being an arrogant man.

I know Jesus called some people such as the pharisees and scribes hypocrites and snakes and other things because He was angry with their philosophy or belief system.

When Jesus stood in front of a man He knew both their heart and thoughts on the very spot they stood.

The bible says from the abundance of the heart does the mouth speak, but the bible also says judge not.

T.v. evangelist and those who belong to the synagogue of Satan are really blind, they don’t see clearly right now, I understand that.

This whole thing is about the beautiful plan of God’s salvation to all, its about being made into God’s image through an experience of good and evil, its about dying to self and all this is accomplished in God’s speed. 
 
One can see the fruits of the spirit in Rays replies, I hope those who visit this website can see those same fruits in us also. 

[lilitalienboi16]

I am not mocking anyone.. I read the link and it says that John Hagee as well as John from Kentucky and also Largeli are all related to God. Not figuratively or metaphorically. Actually descendants of The Creator God. Actual kin and family of God. John Hagee has been created in the image of God and I will love John Hagee if only for that reason. I will love him as myself and I forgive him also !

I read the link you provided and it encouraged me to love. If you read the paper and you feel encouraged to hate... Than I would suggest an examining of your own heart.

Mmmm... John Hagee is BEING CREATED (Ariost Tense) in the image of God. He is not as of yet, in the full image and therefor was not creatED  (past tense) in the image of God.

[onelovedread]

JfK,
If God hates sinners then we're doomed because there is no person beside Jesus who has not been a sinner.
I thought that God's plan to send His Son to shed His own blood was to save the world of sinners that He loves.

[lareli]

I am not mocking anyone.. I read the link and it says that John Hagee as well as John from Kentucky and also Largeli are all related to God. Not figuratively or metaphorically. Actually descendants of The Creator God. Actual kin and family of God. John Hagee has been created in the image of God and I will love John Hagee if only for that reason. I will love him as myself and I forgive him also !

I read the link you provided and it encouraged me to love. If you read the paper and you feel encouraged to hate... Than I would suggest an examining of your own heart.

Mmmm... John Hagee is BEING CREATED (Ariost Tense) in the image of God. He is not as of yet, in the full image and therefor was not creatED  (past tense) in the image of God.

Good point, thanks... I still love him to pieces though    I (as well as all of us) was once as blind as John Hagee so to hate him would make me a hypocrite.

In the 'why god loves you' paper, reason #1 was that we are all related to God. Literally our geneology traces back to Adam and God. So John Hagee is my brother.. Not metaphorically or figuratively but actuall family.. (I'm just drawing a conclusion from Rays paper so correct me if I'm wrong).. The Bible says 'how can you say you love God whom you haven't seen and yet hate your brother whom you have seen?' And 'if anyone claims to love God yet hates his brother then that man is a liar'.. Maybe JFK is right and I lack a basic understanding of scripture in which case I humbly ask The Lord for wisdom and understanding.

[Kat]

largeli, when reading the Scripture one thing that I consider is that when one of the Apostles calls somebody a "brother" they are referring to the believers they were teaching. So I look at the Scripture as instruction to the elect and they are the only ones that will understand of the spiritual message within it. The world can read the physical stories, but they are blind (just like we all are at first) to the spiritual message behind those stories.

When Scripture say that you must "hate" somebody it is in the relative sense or in comparison to something... look how it is used by Jesus Christ. I will make comments in blue.

Luke 14:26  If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his (physical) father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also (in comparison to their love for God), he cannot be My disciple.
v. 27  And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me, he cannot be My disciple.
v. 28  For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he may have enough to finish it;

Mark 10:28  Then Peter began to say to Him, Lo, we have left all and have followed You.
v. 29  And Jesus answered and said, Truly I say to you, There is no man that has left (from our old life) house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands for My sake and the gospel's sake,
v. 30  but he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands (these are real physical things too, but are provided for our spiritual well being) with persecutions (comes with the 'spiritual' territory), and in the world to come, eternal life (the ultimate prize).

Just wanted to give you another perspective to consider. Hope it is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lareli]

Very helpful thanks Kat.

Again feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.. When Christ gave the command to love our neighbor as ourselves, I understand that to mean we aren't to treat anyone in a way we wouldn't want them to treat us.. Same goes for when He says love our enemies. I don't think He was saying that we have to 'like' our enemies or have some sort of lovey dovey affection for them, but love them in the same sense of treating them how we want to be treated, even if they aren't treating us how we want to be treated.. We are to keep our part of the bargain, so-to-speak, even if they don't.

I don't think we have to have the emotion or feeling of love towards everyone because, after all our emotions and feelings will deceive us from time to time... But our deliberate actions towards our enemies and everyone else ought to reflect how we wish to be treated.

It's true that Christ had nasty things to say against the false teachers as JFK pointed out and one thing he said about them consistently was that they were hypocrites! The command to love our neighbor as ourself and likewise to love our enemy, obeying this command will keep us from being hypocrites.

So when I say I love John Hagee I don't mean I agree with, support, or even 'like' him (actually not sure I've ever listened to him) but I hope if I ever crossed paths with him I would not treat him in a way I wouldn't appreciate someone treating me.. I hope I would extend the same grace towards him to believe whatever he wants to believe about God as I would appreciate him extending me grace to believe what I believe about God.. And like I said before, I would be a hypocrite to fault him for believing something I myself once believed.

[lilitalienboi16]

If it hasn't been said, remember, there are two words for love in the bible that paint a rather different picture of the relationship between the lover and the loved.

"Agape" and "philleo." God agapes the world, He does not philleo it. God philleo's the elect as they are His. The bride fit for the lamb's wedding.

God hates but I believe our view of God's hatred is often tainted by own preconcieved notions of what hate is due to our flawed human nature. We want to see hate through the eyes of man but we cannot see God's hate in this same way as God is not a man.

God can hate sin and a sinner but AGAPE the World and DIE for it in the very same breathe. There is no contradiction here nor misdeed of character.

I suppose I'll need to re-read the article that John linked but I don't think John is mistaken in his assessment of the fact that God hates sin and sinner. One does not preclude the other: that God in hating sin and sinnder does not also love the world and His creation.

Anyway... now off to re-reading that article again!

[John from Kentucky]

JfK,
If God hates sinners then we're doomed because there is no person beside Jesus who has not been a sinner.
I thought that God's plan to send His Son to shed His own blood was to save the world of sinners that He loves.

Hi JohnChris,

Your problem is not with me but with God.  Attached is a writing from Ray where he shows multiple Scriptures wherein God states He hates sins and sinners.

The Great False Church teaches a lovey, dovey untruth that God hates sin but loves the sinner.

Let go of false teachings and do a little study time in the Scriptures to find the truth.

John



STARTLING REVELATION: GOD HATES SINNERS

There is no Scripture which states that God hates everyone even though everyone sins:

    "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23)

However, when sinning becomes a way of life, and the sins are of a certain magnitude and grossness, God hates the sinner as well as his sins.  Here are some examples:

     "And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nations which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them" (Leviticus 20:23)

    "If ye will not hearken unto Me, and will not do all these commandments ...My soul shall abhor you" (Lev. 26:14 & 30)

    "For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD" (Deut. 18:12

    "...all that do unrighteously are an abomination unto the LORD" (Deut. 25:16)

    "They provoked Him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations they provoked Him to anger...and when the LORD saw it, and He abhorred them..." (Deut. 32:16 & 19)

    "The foolish shall not stand in Thy sight: You hate all workers of iniquity..." (Psalm 5:5)

    "...God is angry [Heb: 'enraged, abhorrence, abominable'] with the wicked every day" (Psalm 7:11)

    "For the wicked boasts of his heart's desire, and... blesses the covetous, whom the LORD abhors" (Psalm 10:3)

    "The Lord tries the righteous: but the wicked and him that loves violence His soul hates" (Psalm 11:5)

    "When God heard this He was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel" (Psalm 78:59)

    "For the froward [adverse, disobedient] is an abomination to the LORD" (Prov. 3:32)

    "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination to Him... A false witness that speaks lies, and he that sows discord among the brethren" (Prov. 6:16 & 19)

    "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, God's curse be upon him" (I Cor. 16:22, Moffatt Translation)

    "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that friendship of the world is enmity [hatred] with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is an enemy of God" (James 4:4)

So what is there about man that God loves? He hates man's sin and He hates the man who commits the sin. And that IS the way all human beings are. So what is left for God to love?

There is one Scripture that some might think contradicts the many Scriptures above stating that God hates sinners, and that verse is found in Rom. 5:8.

    "But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Doesn't this verse prove that God does love us, even while we are continuing to sin? No, it doesn't. It may sound that way, but let's take a closer look.

CHRIST DIED FOR SINNERS AND FOR THEIR SINS

Christ died for sinners:

    "God commends His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for US" (Rom. 5:?

Christ died for our sins:

    "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for OUR SINS according to the scriptures" (I Cor. 15:3)

If Jesus "died for SINNERS," doesn't that prove that He loves sinners? No. He also "died for our SINS." If dying for sinners proves God's love for sinners, then likewise, dying for our sins would prove God's love for our sins, but God hates our sins. Most of us are familiar with this Scripture:

    "But your iniquities [Heb: perversity, evil, sin] have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear" (Isaiah 59:2)

There is a solution to why Christ died for US SINNERS, and OUR SINS -- two things which God hates.

Notice carefully, that Rom. 5:8 does not say that God loves sinners, or loves us while we are yet sinners. It says that God "commends His love toward us... while yet sinners."

"Commend" means to "introduce or exhibit." Yes, God "introduces" His love toward sinners while they are yet sinners, but He does not actually love them while they are sinning. God cannot both hate sinners (which many Scriptures attest to including those quoted above), and love sinners at the same time. God's Word does not contradict. God's love for humanity before the cross resided in the fact that all will be brought to repentance due to His workmanship, and God sees things not only as they are, but as they WILL BE. It was what God saw that man would BE, in the future after repentance, that He loved.

If Paul wanted to tell us that God loves sinners while they are yet sinning, he would have simply said so, such as this: "God loved us while we were yet sinners." Or even more directly like this: "God LOVES SINNERS." But God only "commended" or "introduced" or "exhibited" that love ahead of time. Paul makes this simple to understand 16 verses previously where he states, "...God calls those things which be NOT as though they WERE" (Rom. 4:17). And since we are told at dozens of places in Scripture that God is the Saviour of all men, His love and sacrifice on the cross covers all sins, for all people, for all time.

    "And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (I John 2:2)
    and
    "God our Saviour, Who will have all men [all sinners] to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the [/b]truth" (I Tim. 2:4)

[lareli]

God hates sin and sinners. Ok there's enough scriptures on here to show that, but that's not something I'm disputing. I'm saying I, me personally do not hate sinners because that would make me (a sinner) a hypocrite. God can hate sinners and not be a hypocrite because He Himself is not a sinner.

Is there any scripture where we are commanded to hate sinners? I don't mean hate evil or hate sin but are we ever instructed to hate sinners? Because I know for sure we are commanded, not encouraged not advised, but commanded to love our neighbor as ourself. It's not an option or a suggestion. When Christ talks about those who profess to love Him yet don't do what He said to do isn't this what He's talking about? Love your neighbor as yourself.. He says that sums up the law and the prophets. 'Depart from me I never knew you' isn't this statement reserved for those hypocrites who don't love God and their neighbor as themselves?

Am I in the woods here?

[John from Kentucky]

God hates sin and sinners. Ok there's enough scriptures on here to show that, but that's not something I'm disputing. I'm saying I, me personally do not hate sinners because that would make me (a sinner) a hypocrite. God can hate sinners and not be a hypocrite because He Himself is not a sinner.

Is there any scripture where we are commanded to hate sinners? I don't mean hate evil or hate sin but are we ever instructed to hate sinners? Because I know for sure we are commanded, not encouraged not advised, but commanded to love our neighbor as ourself. It's not an option or a suggestion. When Christ talks about those who profess to love Him yet don't do what He said to do isn't this what He's talking about? Love your neighbor as yourself.. He says that sums up the law and the prophets. 'Depart from me I never knew you' isn't this statement reserved for those hypocrites who don't love God and their neighbor as themselves?

Am I in the woods here?

Largeli,

Did you not read this study of Ray's that I previously attached?  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.0.html

Greek has several words for love; English has one.  You need to understand the differences to understand the meanings of this word "love" in Scriptures.  Ray went into it in depth, which is why I did not want to repeat in detail.

The cliff notes version is that it's the Greek word agape used in "love your neighbor as yourself."  It is the outgoing love demonstrated by God, which has the ultimate good of the person in mind.  But it is not the warm brotherly type love that one would extend to a family member or close friend.  Bottom line, Hitler will one day repent and be saved, but I don't have to love Hitler as a brother until such time in the future that he repents and is changed by God.


As to your 1st question:  By the power of the Holy Spirit, I seek to become like God.  Therefore, what He loves, I love;  what He hates, I hate.  I conform to His ways and will reject all others.

His kingdom is not of this world.  Neither is mine.  Which is why I don't vote or engage in politics.  I will not join any military or bear arms or kill anyone.  I don't own any weapon.  I will not engage in false worship of God, but will worship Him in Spirit and Truth.  Get the point?

Everything is about the True God and His ways.  I reject everything else.  That's just the way it is.

Not by might, not by power, but by My Spirit says the Lord God Almighty.