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[deejcop]

Hello Group,

I happened to be watching Joel Osteen's sermon on TBN last night, and I heard him mention Psalm 78 41 which says, "Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel. Smilin' Joe expounded on that verse by saying that although God is all-powerful, WE have the ability to LIMIT him, or to "tie His hands." This sounds like sheer blasphemy, as it makes us more powerful than God. But how else do you explain this verse? It seems to correlate with Mark 6:5 where Jesus could do no mighty work because of the people's unbelief. These verses seem to fuel the "free-willers" fire.

Any comments?

[Andy_MI]

Hi deejcop,

Maybe a better translation of the verse will help. Here are a few other translations to consider.

Rotherham:
Psa 78:41 Yea they again put GOD to the test, And, to the Holy One of Israel, caused they sorrow:

The Scriptures 98:
Psa 78:41 And again and again they tried Ěl, And provoked the Set-apart One of Yisra’ĕl.

LITV:
Psa 78:41  Yea, they turned back and tested God, and pained the Holy One of Israel.

Revised Version:
Psa 78:41  And they turned again and tempted God, and provoked the Holy One of Israel.

The word "limited" is:

H8428
תּוה
tâvâh
taw-vaw'
A primitive root (or perhaps identical with H8427 through a similar idea from scraping to pieces); to grieve. (By confusion with H8427): - limit [by confusion with H8427].

I hope this helps.

Love in Christ,

Andy

[Harryfeat]

Psa 78:36 Yet they would entice Him with their mouth And lie to Him with their tongue.
Psa 78:37 Their heart, it was not established before Him, And they were not faithful to His covenant."
Psa 78:38 Yet He was compassionate; He made a propitiatory shelter for depravity, And He did not bring ruin; He acted many times to reverse His anger, And He would not rouse all His fury."
Psa 78:39 He ever remembered that they were flesh, A wind going that is not returning."
Psa 78:40 How often they defied Him in the wilderness; They grieved Him in the desolation.
Psa 78:41 They were again and again probing El, And the Holy One of Israel they set as a mark."

I think that if you read in context with the other verses you get a better picture of the essence of what is being said.

I interpret it being similar to acting like children testing the boundaries of authority of their parents.

Just the way I see it. Hope that perspective helps

feat

[hillsbororiver]

Yes, this looks like another bad translation, if you look up the original Hebrew that was translated to English you find "tempted" to actually be;


H5254
נסה
nâsâh
naw-saw'
A primitive root; to test; by implication to attempt: - adventure, assay, prove, tempt, try.


and "limited" to be;

H8428
תּוה
tâvâh
taw-vaw'
A primitive root (or perhaps identical with H8427 through a similar idea from scraping to pieces); to grieve. (By confusion with H8427): - limit [by confusion with H8427].

If you read the entire chapter the meaning (especially taking out the translator bias) this becomes clearer.

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Good stuff Andy, Bobby & feat,

You guys were right on top of this, I first consulted my Rotherham's then looked up the original Hebrew and came to the same conclusion.

Joe

[rocky]

Hi DJ,

 
 6And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching. [/color]

And why did they not believe???

John 12:40

40 He(God)hath blinded their eyes[/b], and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

I see God doing His will! No free will here!!!

Hope this helps.

bobby


Not to side track this thread, but read this verse this morning.

2Co 4:4  in whom the god of this present age has blinded their unbelieving minds so as to shut out the sunshine of the Good News of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God.


Pretty amazing to me how even satan is used as a tool by our sovereign Father.  God blinds eyes by using satan to do this.  No free will for satan either. 






 

[longhorn]

Whenever I see Joel Osteen I have the insatiable urge to slap that smile off his face.

Longhorn

[M_Oliver]

DJ,

One of the most important lessons I ever learned from Ray and people on this board[like the ones who so completely answered your question]IS you have got to check the translation FIRST whenever you come across something that seems to contradict or not make sense.  God showed me so much truth just by showing me these guys and their method of study.  Get your butt over to esword at minimum and you will begin to see the truth in Scripture like you never have before.

Great job guys.

[hillsbororiver]

DJ,

One of the most important lessons I ever learned from Ray and people on this board[like the ones who so completely answered your question]IS you have got to check the translation FIRST whenever you come across something that seems to contradict or not make sense.  God showed me so much truth just by showing me these guys and their method of study.  Get your butt over to esword at minimum and you will begin to see the truth in Scripture like you never have before.

Great job guys.

Excellent advice M Oliver,

Glad to see you back.

Joe

[deejcop]

Thanks, everyone for that valuable input. And I agree, no wonder so many foul doctrines get started...seems easy to do when words get translated so poorly.

Thanks again, group

[jerry]

It seems that God wants us to think we have freewill at times,like when he says repent,he told the prostitute to go  repent and sin no more as if she was in control and had some amount of freewill either to repent or not to repent,is God controling every thing that comes out of our mouth?If so why the warning to control the toung?Dont get me wrong I beleave we are all saved by his sacrifice,his blood covers the sins of the whole world because we are a creation in progress and what God has dicided to do in us he will complet.Heres another question,if God is in control of every thing and  everyone which I beleave he is ,Then did'nt he put Joel Osteen were he wants him to be as well as the other ministers both true and false,so why should we get angry at others if thats were God has chosen to put them ,He does plan to save them to does'nt he either in this age or the next? and should we want to slap anyone? and call them names? these questions may not make any sense to anyone but me.................Jerry 

[hillsbororiver]

Jerry,

Good questions, comments and observations. Yes, people are where they are because God put them there but if we love the place we are at or who we are then we are not going through His chastisement, if we do not long for Him but are satisfied in our wisdom we are not being prepared for the great prize, we are not even in the race.

We should be striving for His wisdom, purpose and the fruits of the spirit, that requires learning constantly & emptying ourselves of our desires and filling up with His spirit so that His will becomes our will, these things that we see all around us are for that chastising process.

Joe