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Author Topic: If you are the son of god..  (Read 6897 times)

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lareli

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2014, 04:26:29 PM »

I see what you're saying.. I agree with that. Investing your talents within and bearing fruit for sure. But I also consider what Ray did with his talents and how I have benefited from Ray investing and multiplying what God revealed to him.

On one hand I feel guilty and feel like I should be busy doing something other than 'eating' so-to-speak.. On the other hand I really love that verse that says to make it your ambition to lead a quite life, work with your hands and mind your business.

1 thes 4:11

11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you,

I appreciate your responses.



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indianabob

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2014, 11:55:21 PM »

Friend largeli,
Understand your concern and I've been there.
Maybe this will help;
At this stage of our calling we are learning to depend upon God for everything.
That training will take many years to sink in and we are not yet ready to teach anyone else anything. Especially NOT the uncalled.

I have noted since being on the forum how often this subject comes up and my view is that we are not here to learn to teach; not yet. We are here to be taught and to examine ourselves to see how weak and poor and wretched we are and to fall on our knees daily and submit to God. That, in and of itself is a life long work that God is doing in us and becoming truly humble before God is very, very hard.
Our God loves us and is very patient and LONG suffering toward His beloved children. God is taking us through the steps very gradually so that we have every opportunity to face the facts that we are just "dirt" with some small communication abilities.
We are not qualified to teach anyone. In fact trying to teach another person, especially one that is not yet called is dangerous for them and is not doing them a favor.
In our relationships among ourselves, as the called, we have some protection since Lord Jesus has his hands on us. When we go out into the world to teach we are on our own and will likely do more harm than good.
Why second guess God by teaching what we do not yet understand. Trust God to do the calling and wait upon him in all things.

Respectfully offered, ole Indiana Bob



My concern isn't so much whether or not to go back to church.. I haven't been a part of a church for years. My concern is this.. God has literally blown my mind over and over and over ever since I left the church and focused on my own one on one relationship with Him without the input of the church. There's been revelation upon revelation and this site is a humongous part of that.. My question is, if the church instructions in the bible don't apply to us then what is it we're supposed to be doing with all these talents we've received? If the rest of my life is comprised of continually having my mind blown by new revelations and being a hermit then I'm fine with that but how then am I not the servant who buried his Masters talents instead of investing them?
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loretta

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2014, 01:09:14 AM »

Like, when we have a 'turning one over to satan' ceremony, we wear special robes. 

Now that is not very hard to imagine, Dave! :)

No...I just let them go.  That's Spiritual.     

This one though, takes alittle understanding, given what we have learnt in Babylon.

Weren't they still going to Temple and requiring circumcision and observances of the law? Requirements that Paul was teaching were no longer necessary for Gentiles under the New and Better covenant.

Interesting that most evangelical churches today style themselves as NT churches and do exactly the same thing.




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dave

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2014, 12:22:31 PM »

Friend largeli,
Understand your concern and I've been there.
Maybe this will help;
At this stage of our calling we are learning to depend upon God for everything.
That training will take many years to sink in and we are not yet ready to teach anyone else anything. Especially NOT the uncalled.

I have noted since being on the forum how often this subject comes up and my view is that we are not here to learn to teach; not yet. We are here to be taught and to examine ourselves to see how weak and poor and wretched we are and to fall on our knees daily and submit to God. That, in and of itself is a life long work that God is doing in us and becoming truly humble before God is very, very hard.
Our God loves us and is very patient and LONG suffering toward His beloved children. God is taking us through the steps very gradually so that we have every opportunity to face the facts that we are just "dirt" with some small communication abilities.
We are not qualified to teach anyone. In fact trying to teach another person, especially one that is not yet called is dangerous for them and is not doing them a favor.
In our relationships among ourselves, as the called, we have some protection since Lord Jesus has his hands on us. When we go out into the world to teach we are on our own and will likely do more harm than good.
Why second guess God by teaching what we do not yet understand. Trust God to do the calling and wait upon him in all things.

Respectfully offered, ole Indiana Bob



My concern isn't so much whether or not to go back to church.. I haven't been a part of a church for years. My concern is this.. God has literally blown my mind over and over and over ever since I left the church and focused on my own one on one relationship with Him without the input of the church. There's been revelation upon revelation and this site is a humongous part of that.. My question is, if the church instructions in the bible don't apply to us then what is it we're supposed to be doing with all these talents we've received? If the rest of my life is comprised of continually having my mind blown by new revelations and being a hermit then I'm fine with that but how then am I not the servant who buried his Masters talents instead of investing them?

 :)
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lareli

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2014, 04:26:42 PM »

IndianaBob I appreciate what you've said and I take it to heart..

If I may ask though, do you agree with Kat that the instructions in the bible about how to do church don't apply to us? This is the first time I've ever heard someone say that New Testament instructions for believers don't apply to us. I'm sure you can understand how that could be difficult to accept.

Forgetting the teaching aspect of church, what about fellowship? I mean other than a computer screen.. I see people reference certain conferences and speaking events that Ray held.. What happened to those? Why isn't there a directory or something where we can see if anyone lives in our town?
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lareli

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2014, 08:23:47 PM »

We are just dirt with some small communication abilities.. I like that. Also what Kat said about the sun rays.
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AwesomeSavior

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2014, 01:54:08 PM »

Ray mentioned that verse, Hebrews 13:17, in his teachings, but I can't find it now. Here is what I wrote about that verse in the margins. The more accurate translation of the first part should readÖ "BELIEVE them that ARE HIGHLY ESTEEMED", instead of OBEY them that HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU. I believe Ray mentioned that this verse in the King James was translated this way due to the influence of the Catholic Church, and their desire to rule over the people, but I can't reference it. Any help?  :)
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lareli

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2014, 05:39:26 PM »

If anyone can link me to anything Ray wrote to help me understand why none of the New Testament instructions for church apply to us, I'd appreciate it. If all scripture is God breathed and usefull for us than I want to know what the use is for all the scriptures instructing us how to do church. If they don't apply to us then they are of no use. If they are of no use, then what other parts of the bible likewise do not apply? 
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2014, 06:44:25 PM »

Unless you want to literally build an ark of physical gopher wood, then the literal and physical  instructions for it are of "no use".

There's one example.

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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

lareli

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2014, 07:20:15 PM »

Dave I can accept that certain things in the bible are not literal or physical. That's not the same as saying that they don't apply to us.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2014, 08:02:49 PM »

EVERYTHING in Scripture "applies to us".  Indeed, it is written FOR THE MAN OF GOD!  HOW does it apply to us is the question.  Noah built an Ark.  Jesus is our ark.  Physical Jerusalem still exists.  "Symbolic" Jerusalem still exists.  "Spiritual Jerusalem" also exists, but only in a few. 

THE CHURCH/ekklessia still exists (and they will argue till Jesus comes over all the physical rituals and rites and 'laws' of their church).  "Come out of her, MY PEOPLE."  HIS CHURCH is being built...not with hands...made up of those who worship Him in Spirit and Truth.  Etc. etc. etc.  MANY are called.  Few are chosen.

As I tried to communicate earlier, it makes little or no difference to me what "they" do.  There is a Spirit behind what the Apostles wrote concerning the church, and it will affect the behavior of even the least "religious". 

You can't 'join' His Church of your own free will and choice.  But that doesn't mean once joined, you don't grow in all the Graces of God.

Maybe it's just me, but I get a strong sense from reading Paul, for an example, that he himself struggled with how to deliver this "spiritual truth".  You know, it's important in a sense that believers meet a certain standard of behavior...even the most "spiritually minded"...but changing from being a carnal-minded babe (which is how he describes many of his readers) to a spiritually-minded man requires more.  More "grace", more "wisdom", etc.

As for me, I think they shared THAT too...and often, if not always, at the same time they wrote to the 'little babes, the still carnal, and the bewitched'.  It just takes more than being spoon-fed to get it in big enough mouthfuls to support a grown-up.


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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Rene

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2014, 08:42:23 PM »


EVERYTHING in Scripture "applies to us".  Indeed, it is written FOR THE MAN OF GOD!  HOW does it apply to us is the question.  Noah built an Ark.  Jesus is our ark.  Physical Jerusalem still exists.  "Symbolic" Jerusalem still exists.  "Spiritual Jerusalem" also exists, but only in a few. 

THE CHURCH/ekklessia still exists (and they will argue till Jesus comes over all the physical rituals and rites and 'laws' of their church).  "Come out of her, MY PEOPLE."  HIS CHURCH is being built...not with hands...made up of those who worship Him in Spirit and Truth.  Etc. etc. etc.  MANY are called.  Few are chosen.


Totally worth repeating.  :) 8)
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Kat

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2014, 09:48:28 PM »


When Paul gave those instructions to the group of people meeting as a church at that time, it was understandable that they would benefit from the instruction. Now if there are groups meeting that are the true believers now, then they too would probably benefit from those Scripture as well.

But the believers that I know of are scattered all around the world, and do not visit much less meet together regularly, so those instruction would not be used by an individual. That's is what I am talking about.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2014, 11:01:10 PM »

Dave I can accept that certain things in the bible are not literal or physical. That's not the same as saying that they don't apply to us.

I'll give it another shot then, boss.   ;D  You asked if there was any scripture that didn't 'apply to us'.

If you are not planning to build a physical ark with literal gopher wood, then the literal instructions God gave Noah don't apply to you.

Maybe, however, if you are spiritually "building" a spiritual "ark", there is tremendous spiritual truth to be spiritually gleaned from that story.  Yet, Jesus said "Do you not know this parable? And how will you know all parables?"

Mar 4:14  The sower sows the Word.
Mar 4:15  And these are those by the wayside where the Word is sown. And when they hear, Satan comes at once and takes away the Word having been sown in their hearts.
Mar 4:16  And likewise, these are the ones having been sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the Word, they immediately receive it with joy,
Mar 4:17  yet they have no root in themselves, but are temporary. Then trouble or persecution having occurred through the Word, immediately they are offended.
Mar 4:18  These are those being sown into the thorn bushes, those hearing the Word,
Mar 4:19  and the cares of this age, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts about other things entering in, they choke the Word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Mar 4:20  And these are those being sown on the good ground, who hear and welcome the Word and bring forth fruit, one thirty, and one sixty, and one a hundredfold.

Does any of that sound familiar?  I guarantee you it did to Paul, Peter, James, John and Jude.   :D  Do you "preach" the same way to every type of "seed"?  Ray didn't.  Neither did those men who taught him.








 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 11:35:32 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

microlink

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2014, 05:24:55 PM »

Very interesting dialogue between Largeli and Kat (and everyone). Quite informative.

Mat_18:20  For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Heb 10:25  Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
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lareli

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2014, 04:42:36 PM »

Dave thanks for your replies..

I don't want to frustrate you guys who have been around here for a long time and have dealt with the same questions over and over.. So I'm re-reading through the lake of fire paper about the church that Jesus built and I'm trying to chew on that as much as I can before I keep on with this thread..

But if I may trouble you one more time on this topic,

I asked if there were any New Testament instructions to believers that don't apply to us as Kat said the New Testament instructions for how to do church don't apply to us. You gave the building of the ark (Old Testament) as an example. I know there are a whole lot of commandments in the Old Testament that don't apply to us, but I am referring to New Testament instructions to believers that don't apply to us. This is the first time I've ever heard a believer say that something (in this case a LOT of something's) in the New Testament don't apply to believers today.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2014, 05:34:59 PM »

"Husbands, love your wives even as Christ loved the church".

Since I'm not married, this doesn't apply to me.  Except the part that does, of course.   :D

Would it surprise or disappoint you to learn that not only do I not 'do church', I don't have a 'christian life', that is to say, distinct from the life which I live?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 06:00:38 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Kat

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2014, 06:16:08 PM »


But if I may trouble you one more time on this topic,

I asked if there were any New Testament instructions to believers that don't apply to us as Kat said the New Testament instructions for how to do church don't apply to us. You gave the building of the ark (Old Testament) as an example. I know there are a whole lot of commandments in the Old Testament that don't apply to us, but I am referring to New Testament instructions to believers that don't apply to us. This is the first time I've ever heard a believer say that something (in this case a LOT of something's) in the New Testament don't apply to believers today.

The Apostles continued to circumcise gentile men and they baptized those that converted, as the church does to this day.

Acts 10:48  And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Acts 16:14  Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.
v. 15  And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay." So she persuaded us.

Acts 2:41  Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

Acts 15:3  So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren.
v. 4  And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them.
v. 5  But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

But Paul stopped baptizing and circumcising later on, as he learned more about the truth.

1Co 1:17  For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

http://bible-truths.com/email15.htm ------

[Ray Replies]

Dear Margaret:

 Most people don't realize that there was a transition period from the end of Christ's ministry and the writing of Revelation. Most of the converts to Christianity continued to KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES as did the unbelievers. They were so zealous for the law of Moses, in fact, that they insisted that Paul and others force the Gentile converts to be law keepers as well. At the Jerusalem Conference mentioned in Acts 15 it is clear that the Apostles did not longer believe that Gentile converts had to be circumcised or follow any of the other laws of Moses. They were to live by a much higher spiritual law including the commandments to LOVE YOUR ENEMIES.

 Paul baptized in the beginning of his ministry. Late he said, "The Lord has not called me to baptize."  All the institutionalized churches of men know is the physical. Some have even said that, "The physical IS THE SPIRITUAL." What rank nonsense. All physical rituals (baptism is a physical ritual) are types and shadows of spiritual realities. When we have the reality, why should we still look to the type or shadow?  Would you sooner have the "shadow" that a new house casts on the grown, the "new house" that casts the shadow?

 Jesus Christ is the spiritual reality of ALL TYPES AND SHADOWS.  "Jesus Christ is the END of the law."


http://bible-truths.com/email6.htm#nothing -----


If you are IN CHRIST, then CHRIST IS IN YOU, and Christ will live a NEW LIFE IN YOU THROUGH THE SPIRIT OF GOD, and not through the carnal minded flesh of man.

THERE IS NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, THAT ONE CAN DO 'PHYSICALLY' TO GET SAVED 'SPIRITUALLY'!!

But what about all these 'physical things' of circumcision and baptism? Do we not have to be circumcised and baptized? YES WE DO! ABSOLUTELY. And here is how it is to be done:

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy [theological doctrines] and vain DECEIT, after the TRADITION OF MEN, after the RUDIMENTS OF THE WORLD, and NOT AFTER CHRIST. For IN HIM dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.  And YOU ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the Head of all principality and power: In Whom also ye ARE CIRCUMCISED [how so?] with the circumcision made WITHOUT HANDS [or knives], in putting off the BODY OF THE SINS OF THE FLESH by the CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST: [notice, no period...] Buried WITH HIM [in 'WATER baptism?' No...] in baptism [how so? same way! 'WITHOUT HANDS; WITHOUT WATER, 'in putting off the body of the SINS OF THE FLESH by the BAPTISM OF CHRIST--there is but 'ONE BAPTISM,' Eph. 4:5!], wherein also you are risen WITH HIM through the faith of the operation of God Who has raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the UNcircumcision of your flesh, has He quickened together WITH HIM, having forgiven you ALL TRESPASSES

... Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon or of the sabbath days: Which are a SHADOW of things to come, but the body [the SUBSTANCE, the REALITY OF THE SHADOW, the BODY OF CHRIST WHICH WAS CASTING THE SHADOW] is of [or belongs to] CHRIST" (Col. 2:8-13 & 16-17)!!!

At the conference at Jerusalem spoken of in the 15th chapter of Acts, Christian Pharisees were demanding that newly converted Gentiles must BE CIRCUMCISED AND KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES.  Did the Apostles, elders, disciples, and the whole church under the inspiration of God's Holy Spirit conclude that they should:

  A. Be circumcised, but NOT to keep the law of Moses?

  B. Keep the law of Moses, but NOT to be circumcised?

  C. Be circumcised, AND keep the law of Moses?

  D. NONE OF THE ABOVE?

It is, of course, NONE OF THE ABOVE. They ALL concluded in complete harmony with each other and the Spirit of God, that new Christian converts were not to be circumcised OR keep the law of Moses. Now everyone knows (don't they?) that the ritual of circumcision was the most important physical ritual in all the Old Covenant, and that that the Old Covenant itself WAS the 'Ten Commandments.' 

"And He [GOD] declared unto you His [Old now] Covenant, which He commanded you to perform, EVEN TEN COMMANDMENTS; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone" (Deut. 4:13). 

The TEN COMMANDMENTS were, in effect, THE OLD COVENANT! Read all of Acts 15 and see for yourself that the OLD covenant ten commandments and circumcision were NOT enforced upon NEW CHRISTIAN CONVERTS UNDER THE NEW COVENANT!

 When we have JESUS CHRIST LIVING IN OUR VERY HEARTS AND MINDS AND SPIRITS, we don't need laws chiseled into hearts of STONY TABLETS!  We must live a spiritual life FAR FAR ABOVE that of the legalistic Pharisaical hypocrites that thought that obeying physical laws makes a man SPIRITUAL.
 --------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 10:29:32 AM by Kat »
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lareli

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2014, 06:36:12 PM »

Ok.

So from the end of Jesus ministry to the revelation of John we have recorded in the New Testament the transition period in which the disciples were actually un-learning the physical church practices.. So it's not so much an instruction manual of how to do physical church as it is an instruction manual for how to un-learn physical church.. And how to do spiritual church.

Is that right?
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indianabob

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Re: If you are the son of god..
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2014, 01:32:29 AM »

Yes Largeli,
I think that you are on the right path.
Keep those thoughts in your mind and continue to meditate and WAIT while God gently and purposefully grants you deeper insight. It is a process; cleaning out the cob webs of the indoctrination we all received in our former life.
Don't take concern for achieving a result, just enjoy the journey, it is all in God's hands and His perfect son sends the "comforter" to encourage us along the way.

Sincerely, friend Indiana Bob
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