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Author Topic: John 5:37  (Read 30056 times)

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John from Kentucky

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2014, 03:30:34 PM »

Also, don't forget in the Book of Ezechiel, God appeared in a human form to Ezechiel, out of the whirlwind and with the Cherubim.

The God of the Old Testament, Who appeared in human form, was He Who we know as Jesus.

Actually, that is the form of the visible God.  God made man in His (God's) image.  Humans look like God.

However, that aspect of God Who Jesus called the Father, is the invisible God, Who we have not seen or heard, because Jesus said so.

Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.  The only way to know the Father is through Jesus.
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Kat

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2014, 03:51:15 PM »


Oh yes John that certainly is an awesome image and it too depicts God in the form of a man, enthroned above the cherubim or "four living creatures." I'll add the Scripture of it.

Eze 1:4  Then I looked, and behold, a whirlwind was coming out of the north, a great cloud with raging fire engulfing itself; and brightness was all around it and radiating out of its midst like the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire.
Eze 1:26  And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27  Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28  Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.

Also there in Daniel that describes His glorious figure, but still He appears as a man.

Dan 10:5  I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose waist was girded with gold of Uphaz!
Dan 10:6  His body was like beryl, His face like the appearance of lightning, His eyes like torches of fire, His arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of His words like the voice of a multitude.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Ian 155

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2014, 05:29:12 PM »


I was wondering that God has an image even before "the Word made flesh" and "Moises saw the back parts of God." :)


A 'Man' wrestled with Jacob all night and this I believe was a literal event that happened, yet represents a parable about Israel.



now there is some good food,thanks Kat - like a wow moment

Also I think, back to the topic, the key word here is seen" if you have seen me you have seen the Father" - "I and the father are one"   seek and ye shall find - knock and the door (to the kingdom) shall be opened,the father is pleased to shew you the kingdom etc it is not the sight of carnal eye but the spiritual sight we are after - as in open my eyes that i may see - is the key...like Ray said keep asking ,begging.God Jesus Is the fire that purifies us,how do we match up loooong way to go
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Ian 155

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2014, 05:40:04 PM »

Exodus 33:20

Thou canst not: This is well explained by Rabbi Jehudah, in Sepher Cosri (P. iv. § 3): "Of that divine glory mentioned in the Scripture, there is one degree which the eyes of the prophets were able to explore; another which all the Israelites saw, as the cloud and consuming fire; the third is so bright, and so dazzling, that no mortal is able to comprehend it; but should anyone venture to look on it, his whole frame would be dissolved." In such inconceivable splendour is the Divine Majesty revealed to the inhabitants of the celestial world, where he is said to "dwell in the light which no man can approach unto" (1Ti_6:16). By the "face of God," therefore, we are to understand that light inaccessible before which angels may stand, but which would be so insufferable to mortal eyes, that no man could see it and live

anyone agree ?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2014, 05:43:08 PM by Ian 155 »
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Kat

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2014, 07:59:46 PM »

Exodus 33:20

Thou canst not: This is well explained by Rabbi Jehudah, in Sepher Cosri (P. iv. § 3): "Of that divine glory mentioned in the Scripture, there is one degree which the eyes of the prophets were able to explore; another which all the Israelites saw, as the cloud and consuming fire; the third is so bright, and so dazzling, that no mortal is able to comprehend it; but should anyone venture to look on it, his whole frame would be dissolved." In such inconceivable splendour is the Divine Majesty revealed to the inhabitants of the celestial world, where he is said to "dwell in the light which no man can approach unto" (1Ti_6:16). By the "face of God," therefore, we are to understand that light inaccessible before which angels may stand, but which would be so insufferable to mortal eyes, that no man could see it and live

anyone agree ?

Well I cannot agree with this considering that God did come down to Moses and "stood with him."

Exo 34:4  So he cut two tablets of stone like the first ones. Then Moses rose early in the morning and went up Mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him; and he took in his hand the two tablets of stone.
v. 5  Now the LORD descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 
v. 6  And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth,

This is what the LORD said He would do when Moses had asked "to see His glory" in chapter in 33. So Moses as a mere mortal man did stand in the presence of God (though not allowed to see His face) and his whole frame was not dissolved. So actually it is as the Lord said when Moses made the request, "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" (Exo 33:19).

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Rene

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2014, 09:16:07 PM »


Actually, that is the form of the visible God.  God made man in His (God's) imageHumans look like God.



My understanding is that God is making man in His image.  I do not believe this is talking about a "physical" image.

1Cor 15:49-50 - "And, even as we have borne the image of the man of earth, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven. And this I say, brethren —that, flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom. Neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Col 3:9-10,12 - "having stript off the old man, together with his practices, And having put on the new—who is being moulded afresh unto personal knowledge, after the image of Him that hath created him,— Put on, therefore, as men chosen of God, holy and beloved, tender affections of compassion, graciousness, lowliness of mind, meekness, long-suffering"

Rom 1:23 - " And exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God, for the likeness of an image of a corruptible man..."

 
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John from Kentucky

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2014, 10:45:49 PM »

Exodus 33:20

Thou canst not: This is well explained by Rabbi Jehudah, in Sepher Cosri (P. iv. § 3): "Of that divine glory mentioned in the Scripture, there is one degree which the eyes of the prophets were able to explore; another which all the Israelites saw, as the cloud and consuming fire; the third is so bright, and so dazzling, that no mortal is able to comprehend it; but should anyone venture to look on it, his whole frame would be dissolved." In such inconceivable splendour is the Divine Majesty revealed to the inhabitants of the celestial world, where he is said to "dwell in the light which no man can approach unto" (1Ti_6:16). By the "face of God," therefore, we are to understand that light inaccessible before which angels may stand, but which would be so insufferable to mortal eyes, that no man could see it and live

anyone agree ?

No I disagree.  I do not need the opinion of any man when truth is established by at least two Scriptures.
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John from Kentucky

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2014, 10:58:14 PM »


Actually, that is the form of the visible God.  God made man in His (God's) imageHumans look like God.



My understanding is that God is making man in His image.  I do not believe this is talking about a "physical" image.

1Cor 15:49-50 - "And, even as we have borne the image of the man of earth, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven. And this I say, brethren —that, flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom. Neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Col 3:9-10,12 - "having stript off the old man, together with his practices, And having put on the new—who is being moulded afresh unto personal knowledge, after the image of Him that hath created him,— Put on, therefore, as men chosen of God, holy and beloved, tender affections of compassion, graciousness, lowliness of mind, meekness, long-suffering"

Rom 1:23 - " And exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God, for the likeness of an image of a corruptible man..."

 


The Scriptures speak of spiritual bodies too.  As Paul said, there is a physical body and then there is a spiritual body.

Jesus is called the visible image of God.  Therefore He has a form and can be seen in His Spiritual body and can appear in a physical body, as He did multiple times in both the Old and New Testaments.  By two or three witnesses let every word be established.

Of course, His Father is the invisible God, Who cannot be seen or heard, Who is beyond our senses.  The Father, the invisible God can only be revealed by the visible God, Jesus, which multiple Scriptures attest.

No one can provide two Scriptures that reveal the Father has an image or can be heard by us.  Jesus Himself said so.

If we believe the Scriptures, understanding of these matters comes easy.  But most reject the Scriptures, and follow the opinions of some Rabbi or other man.  God alone reveals Himself through His Scriptures and His Spirit within us.
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indianabob

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2014, 02:21:44 AM »

Indiana Bob's view point, a few random thoughts.

We don't have an illustration of what God is or what God looks like to prove anything. All that has been revealed could very well be visions in the heads of those who "saw" something or a manifestation of a man made for the express visitation.

We may for the present assume that God invented the form of a human for the purpose of mobility and the sharing of communication between beings in a gaseous atmosphere.
God's spirit can manifest anything God wants to reveal including clouds, fiery pillars, angels in chariots etc. Most of these things could be brought into existence for a temporary use and simply disappear once again. The spirit in man that gives life, returns to God who gave it at the death of the person.
God may use anthropomorphism as a means of communication without being in any way deceptive. God is sovereign and may withhold full information for God's own purpose. AND because we are not ready to know of it...

We know that Jesus was a physical man and we are told that Jesus will appear on the earth once more in that form; so humans can see him (?). That in and of itself does not prove that Jesus is confined to that form. OR that the form of a man is the natural state of an immortal being after the change to immortality.

That God can illustrate God or manifest God in a form to which humans can relate, does not prove that the form we see or the form we imagine from a word picture are the actual basic or underlying fact.

God did not need God's self as a model to copy when God made Adam or when God made the second Adam, the Lord Jesus. It is quite likely that God exist in a manner that we have NOT imagined and that has not been revealed to any but the son of God the man, the Lord Jesus when Jesus was changed to immortality and ascended.

I think it is quite likely that God is withholding many secrets from us and that we will spend at least the beginning of eternity being regularly thrilled and impressed with our Father's power and inventiveness.
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santgem

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2014, 05:59:04 AM »

Greetings!

In my opinion i think we will have an image in a form of a spiritual man in the resurrection and immortality.


But, Jesus said that we will be like an angel in the resurrection;
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.Mat 22:30

But the angel is made of flaming fire;
Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: Psa 104:4

and we will be having like image of the heavenly, like angels;
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.1Co 15:49


But according to Paul, we will be like Jesus;
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1Jo 3:2


and when John saw Jesus, He was like the Son of man;
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; Rev 1:1314



as when God has an image and created the man according to His own image, i think it is the most wonderful, beautiful and perfect form that God had in mind.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2014, 07:37:38 AM »

The key here is we do not yet know what this image is:

Quote
But according to Paul, we will be like Jesus;
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1Jo 3:2
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 07:40:00 AM by Dennis Vogel »
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Kat

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2014, 11:29:10 AM »


I can see that the Son was brought forth into being to look a certain way from His starting point the beginning of this creation. He is what the Father (it's hard to put a name on what God the Father is, certainly cannot be contained within a being, but Father works because that's what Christ called Him) is using for everything concerning this creation, His image as well.

Col 1:16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and FOR Him (the Son).

Every place in all the Scriptures posted that described the Son is as a man, even in the spiritual state He has the shape of a man; arms, feet, waist, face and eyes. Now these Scripture give me enough proof to know what the Son looks like, so that I can believe it.

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

The way I read this, it says the begotten "sons of God" though they do "not yet appear" now as such or as they will be then... "but we know" at His second coming we will be "like Him" in His glorious state of being. Then they can look on the face of His glory and live, because they have life and will have been "raised a spiritual body" and all my translations have "body" there.

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
v. 43  It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
v. 44  It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 06:25:16 PM by Kat »
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Ian 155

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2014, 06:05:54 PM »

that quote was frm King James commentary on e sword ...... so we fire the Rabbi


moving on

"Who is the image of the inuisible God, the first borne of every creature KjV  and ..... we will be like him".

2nd witness 1 Jn 3v2 = Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear(in Us ), we shall be like him;  for we shall see him as he is...
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 07:05:58 PM by Ian 155 »
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theophilus

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2014, 11:46:13 PM »


I was wondering that God has an image even before "the Word made flesh" and "Moises saw the back parts of God." :)


A 'Man' wrestled with Jacob all night and this I believe was a literal event that happened, yet represents a parable about Israel.



now there is some good food,thanks Kat - like a wow moment

Also I think, back to the topic, the key word here is seen" if you have seen me you have seen the Father" - "I and the father are one"   seek and ye shall find - knock and the door (to the kingdom) shall be opened,the father is pleased to shew you the kingdom etc it is not the sight of carnal eye but the spiritual sight we are after - as in open my eyes that i may see - is the key...like Ray said keep asking ,begging.God Jesus Is the fire that purifies us,how do we match up loooong way to go

Actually, that is the form of the visible God.  God made man in His (God's) imageHumans look like God.



My understanding is that God is making man in His image.  I do not believe this is talking about a "physical" image.

1Cor 15:49-50 - "And, even as we have borne the image of the man of earth, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven. And this I say, brethren —that, flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom. Neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Col 3:9-10,12 - "having stript off the old man, together with his practices, And having put on the new—who is being moulded afresh unto personal knowledge, after the image of Him that hath created him,— Put on, therefore, as men chosen of God, holy and beloved, tender affections of compassion, graciousness, lowliness of mind, meekness, long-suffering"

Rom 1:23 - " And exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God, for the likeness of an image of a corruptible man..."

You got it Rene.

"Humans look like God?" Are there two witnessing verses that support this statement?

Are we to understand that Jesus was saying that He and His Father are like identical twins? "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father" I don't think Jesus is referring to His physical appearance. I think Jesus is referring to the image He was putting forth as He obeyed His Father and lived a godly life. Throngs of people SAW Jesus. Did they see the Father in Jesus? I don't think so. That's why "Jesus replied, HAVE I BEEN WITH YOU FOR SO LONG, AND YOU HAVE NOT KNOWN ME, Phillip"? The person who has seen me has seen the Father! How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

The scribes and Pharisees didn't SEE or RECOGNIZE the Father in Jesus. John 5.19: They said to him therefore, “Where is your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.

Remember the saying "Like father like son"? In the Lord's case it is "Like Son like Father", since we haven't seen the Father. It is by SEEING/KNOWING the Son that we come to know what His (our) Father is like.
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theophilus

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2014, 12:01:24 AM »

Hear, hear Indianabob!

God could have given us another appearance, say like any science fiction alien looks like. And Jesus would have come into this world having that alien appearance too. That appearance is irrelevant. What is relevant is our character, our spiritual makeup.
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theophilus

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2014, 12:32:24 AM »

1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God’s children now; WHAT WE WILL BE has not yet been revealed. What we do know is this: when he is revealed, WE WILL BE LIKE HIM, for we will see him as he is.

Consider "WHAT WE WILL BE" as opposed to "WHAT WE WILL LOOK LIKE". It's not about what we will LOOK LIKE; it's about what we WILL BE.

WHAT WE WILL BE has not yet been revealed. What we DO KNOW is this: when he is revealed, WE WILL BE LIKE HIM.

And what is Jesus like? Jesus is like His Father! And what is His Father like? The Lord God will have accomplished in the overcomers what He purposed in Himself when He said "Let us be making MAN in OUR image". The rest will follow eventually.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 09:36:44 AM by theophilus »
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santgem

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2014, 03:35:22 AM »

The key here is we do not yet know what this image is:

Quote
But according to Paul, we will be like Jesus;
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1Jo 3:2

Greetings Dennis,

Yes it's true that we do not yet know what this image is.

The Lord loves us so much that it does not leave us clueless regarding the things that shall come. The Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine. Sometimes we have to go deeper just like our brother Ray had done.

As for the others are saying and like Kat that we will  have a "body" and "image";
and the Scripture is giving us hints..............

And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. Mat 17:1-9
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Kat

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2014, 09:53:18 AM »


Yes theo, I agree with what you are saying, it is ultimately all about the spiritual. But I know people that believe that when brought into the kingdom and made one with God it means to sort of dissolve into this oneness and become a part of it and to lose ones identity altogether. I totally disagree with that idea.

I believe that to recognize that Christ has an 'image' that identifies Him and that we all will continue to have one too, is an important thing to understand. Of course that is not more important than the spiritual aspect of it, but I think it is something that is significant.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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theophilus

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2014, 12:03:07 PM »


Yes theo, I agree with what you are saying, it is ultimately all about the spiritual. But I know people that believe that when brought into the kingdom and made one with God it means to sort of dissolve into this oneness and become a part of it and to lose ones identity altogether. I totally disagree with that idea.

I believe that to recognize that Christ has an 'image' that identifies Him and that we all will continue to have one too, is an important thing to understand. Of course that is not more important than the spiritual aspect of it, but I think it is something that is significant.

mercy, peace and love
Kat


I see. Them people are wrong. If we speak of having a body, it follows logically that it will have an image. Jesus said his Father was greater than him. Also, 1 Cor. 15:28 Now when everything has been subjected to the Son, then he will subject himself to God, who subjected everything to him; so that God may be EVERYTHING IN EVERYONE.

It appears to me the Son will continue to be lesser than his Father as he will subject himself to God; us much more. I don't see us dissolving in oneness with the God. I see us joining with God in oneness.

Jesus is now a Placer, a subjector. When the culmination comes, when he hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, he will cease to be a subjector.
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Ian 155

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2014, 06:00:44 PM »


It appears to me the Son will continue to be lesser than his Father as he will subject himself to God; us much more. I don't see us dissolving in oneness with the God. I see us joining with God in oneness.



Theo how do we expain the verse "I and the Father are one"
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