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Author Topic: John 5:37  (Read 30062 times)

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Rene

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2014, 06:51:15 PM »


Theo how do we expain the verse "I and the Father are one"


Ian,

Here is an email reply from Ray which was included at the end of the paper "Is God a Closed Trinity or an Open Family."

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html

                                                                                                Ray Replies

Dear Brett:

I actually answer this in my paper on the trinity. Yet I get asked it continually. The reason is, I believe, that most are not willing to accept the answer I give FROM THE SCRIPTURES.

 I am asked: "Is Jesus GOD or isn't He GOD?"

 When I answer: "Yes, Jesus IS GOD," they are not satisfied with that answer they want to know: "Well then, as there is only ONE GOD, and if Jesus IS GOD, then Jesus must be THAT ONE GOD INCLUDING THE FATHER, and so by deduction, JESUS IS THE FATHER.

 I'm not saying you, Bret, but there is no end to the times I get this posed to me. And yes, there are those religions that firmly believe that JESUS CHRIS IS GOD THE FATHER.

 When the Pharisees accused Jesus of blaspheming because He said He was "The SON of God," Jesus reminded them that their own scriptures state that, "YE ARE GODS."


"I have said, YE ARE GODS; and all of you are CHILDREN OF THE MOST HIGH" (Psalm 82:6).

"For WE [Believers] ARE members of His [Jesus] body, of His flesh, and of His bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they TWO shall be ONE flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and THE CHURCH" (Eph. 5:31-32).

 "That they ALL may be ONE [Who?--ALL. How many?--ONE] as you Father are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be ONE in US... And the glory which You gave to Me I have given them, that they may be ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE" (John 17:21-22).

This IS the Scripture that Jesus quoted. They didn't accept what Jesus said, and people will not accept what I say.

 I'll try once more:

"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be ONE FLESH" (Gen. 2:24).

How many people?--TWO.  How many flesh?--ONE.

There the Scriptural answer!

"...that they may be ONE, even as WE [Jesus AND His Father] ARE O-N- E"!!!

HOW many Persons? Jesus & Father--TWO. HOW many GODS?--O-N-E   G-O-D!!!

 As a "husband and wife" ARE ONE, and "Jesus and His Church," ARE ONE, so also "Jesus and His Father," ARE ONE.

 I don't what more I can say or how many times I can say it.  I hope this helps.

God be with you,

Ray


« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 06:53:41 PM by Rene »
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theophilus

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2014, 03:07:39 PM »


It appears to me the Son will continue to be lesser than his Father as he will subject himself to God; us much more. I don't see us dissolving in oneness with the God. I see us joining with God in oneness.



Theo how do we expain the verse "I and the Father are one"

I, for one, explain it as "The whole is the sum of its parts."

The phrase "I and the Father are one" is great support for those who believe that Jesus is the Father. However, Jesus didn't say "I and the Father are ONE AND THE SAME". This latter phrase has a different meaning, don't you think?

"I and the Father" involves two subjects in the sentence. Jesus could have plainly said "I AM THE FATHER" but didn't. "I and the Father" leaves Jesus' individuality and that of His Father separate. This is my lowly take on this sacred topic. May God forgive me if I'm wrong. Or better yet, may God give me revelation.
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John from Kentucky

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2014, 04:00:41 PM »


There is only One God.

As Ray mentioned before me, if God the Father is a separate entity, with a separate personality, with a separate existence; and if Jesus is a separate entity, with a separate personality, and a separate existence; then you have two Gods.

But the Scriptures teach over and over again that there is One God.

If you believe in two Gods, then you are a pagan with heathen, false beliefs.  It doesn't matter if the names of your gods are Father and Jesus, or Zeus and Apollo, or Wodin and Thor; you are deceived and do not believe in the One, True God.

The same if you believe in a trinity of three gods--father, son, and holy spirit---or all the other multiple gods of mankind---you are an ignorant pagan idol worshiper.

How do you pray to your false, multiple gods?  Fifteen minutes to the Father, then fifteen minutes to the Son, so that they don't feel slighted?

I have studied this subject for several years.  I have well over a hundred Scriptures to show there is only One God.  But they despise the Word of God.  They hate those who bring the Word of God.  Jesus told us not to give something of value to those who do not or can not appreciate it.

If any are interested in Truth, then read the attached from Ray.  Also read the end of Ray's article on his creed.  Only Jesus is our teacher, and only He can open up ones understanding.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13157.0.html
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AwesomeSavior

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2014, 06:10:50 PM »

So… God the Father is the only GOD… but then you have His created Son, the Lord Jesus Christ… So there are, in fact, two separate entities… Just as a husband and wife are ONE, but yet they are two separate entities. Just as Christ and His Church are ONE, but they are two separate entities. Am I correct?
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Kat

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2014, 06:30:42 PM »


John, I don't think anybody here is saying that as the Father and Son have distinctions from one another would means then they are 2 Gods, that's your reasoning. They are one in mind and Spirit, just as the elect will also enter into this oneness with the Father and Son. We will become united by His Holy Spirit and have the same mind, not become the Father.

John 17:22  And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

The Father and Son have differences, Jesus Christ had a starting point when He came forth from the Father (John 8:42; 13:3; 16:27, 30). It is impossible for me to think of this eternal entity (the Father) as a being having a shape or form of some sort, as the Son does. There are many Scripture that also say the Son was begotten of the Father (John 1:14,18; 3:16, 18; Heb 11:17; 1 John 4:9), that beginning means He did not experience all that the Father knows before He came to be. Jesus clearly made the distinction between Himself and the Father, as the Son "was with" God the Father.

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
v. 2  He was in the beginning with God.

John 1:18  No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

He was in the Father "bosom" or embrace, like a father/mother lovingly holds their child. If Jesus is the Father how can He declare that His Father is greater than He is?

John 14:28  Ye heard that, I, said unto you—I go my way, and I come unto you,—Had ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, that I am going unto the Father, for, the Father, is, greater than I.

Now this relationship of Father and Son is not exactly like the physical that we have, as I do not believe that they are actually separate and acting independently. No, I think the Son is more like an extension of the Father, so He receives His direction directly and internally from the Father. Christ said He spoke what He 'heard' from the Father, but He also said nobody has ever heard His voice... that's because He has a natural internally connection (called the Holy Spirit), and perfect understanding with the Father.

John 8:26  I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him."

I think the Son is a connected part of the Father in that He is what the Father brought forth of Himself to do the work of this creation. It says He "is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens," His "right hand"... a parable or another way to explain their relationship. It could be that the Son is an extension of the Father sort of like our arm is an extension of us, everything about Him is totally controlled by the Father, but He is not everything that the Father is, there is much more to the Father. At least this is a way of looking at it that helps me understand what it could be like, and most importantly it does match with all the Scripture.

Heb 8:1 Now this is the sum of what is being said: Such a Chief Priest have we, Who is seated at the right of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
v. 2 a Minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle. which the Lord pitches, and not a man." (CLV)

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 10:32:12 AM by Kat »
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microlink

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2014, 12:12:55 AM »

Hi everyone,

This seems to be a never ending topic for discussion here and many other places.

Just believe the scriptures.


1Co_8:6  But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Is Jesus God?

Joh_20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

The debate goes on and will go on and on.

However we have yet to learn how we are part of being gods either now or definitely in the future

I think Ray got it pretty much in his reply recently posted here by Rene.
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Ian 155

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2014, 06:35:30 AM »


It appears to me the Son will continue to be lesser than his Father as he will subject himself to God; us much more. I don't see us dissolving in oneness with the God. I see us joining with God in oneness.



Theo how do we expain the verse "I and the Father are one"


"I and the Father" involves two subjects in the sentence. Jesus could have plainly said "I AM THE FATHER" but didn't. "I and the Father" leaves Jesus' individuality and that of His Father separate. This is my lowly take on this sacred topic. May God forgive me if I'm wrong. Or better yet, may God give me revelation.

Ok I beliieve we are not GODs yet but (gods)PS 86v2:I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
We are being made into GOD's likeness, shape, form, if you like.When Jesus was born he was a god as well hhowever, the path to becoming like unto GOD (one with GOD), is the road Jesus walked - I believe it is when you have to,are led to, forsake all.
You then begin to walk with GOD and be his friend this is also kinda still in the beginning IE In THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED... this is part of our beginning learning (being taught ) to depend on God not our own worldly ways.(understanding) which I believe ties in with miracle no 1 being turned into wine...

actually we all, Jew and Gentile come out of the father and we will all return to the father and be ONE that is my understanding and I believe I have Gods spirit residing in me...
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Kat

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2014, 10:33:50 AM »


actually we all, Jew and Gentile come out of the father and we will all return to the father and be ONE that is my understanding and I believe I have Gods spirit residing in me...

Hi Ian, actually I think Christ was unique in how He was brought forth from the Father "the only begotten Son" (John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; Heb 11:17; 1 John 4:9), as His spiritual Son first, then entering flesh to fully share our own existence before He suffer and died. 

Some people believe that mankind were spirit beings that came into the flesh, but we all are first of the flesh and only when we are begotten with the Spirit do we have life within us.

1Co 15:46  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
v. 47  The first man came from the dust of the earth; the second man came from heaven.

But I do think I see what you mean we came out of the Father, in that He certainly gave us the physical breath of life.

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Ecc 12:7  Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

However we have yet to learn how we are part of being gods either now or definitely in the future

Only when the Holy Spirit is indwelling do we have the earnest of spiritual life and any part of God, sons of God.

Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

John 1:12  But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

2Co 1:21  Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
v. 22  who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

2Co 5:4  For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
v. 5  Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as he is.

And to the point of the "future," taking the analogy of Christ being the right hand of God, then could the elect be further extensions like the fingers of the hand? It seems to fit thinking of it as all being through Christ, but still from the ultimate source of power, the Father.

mercy. peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 12:50:52 PM by Kat »
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santgem

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2014, 03:58:35 AM »

Greetings!

I do believe that it is only Jesus that came out of the Father Literally;
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.Jhn 1:14

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.Jhn 1:18

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.Jhn 8:42

I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. Jhn 16:28




and after Jesus came out of the Father, Jesus created all things;
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Jhn 1:3

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:Col 1:16
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Ian 155

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2014, 08:41:37 AM »

HI ,

One can go real deep on this subject...start in Gen 1v1 God created both the heaven's ( spirit ) and the earth [ MAN ], MAN was without form,empty and dark.or naked ,wretched and blind...

And Gods spirit was hovering [waiting]over us . at just the right time ....WE get separated ie light and dark [sheep an goats,good fish bad fish etc...GOD saw that the LIGHT was good - carry on reading - then comes a joining, a union [ADAM/EVE] "YOU AND CHRIST" you read on, the word will be opened up... as you seek his FACE or AS YOU GROW GOD will reveal the "Son" in you and then you will see God [if you have seen me,you have seen the father]  ...
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theophilus

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2014, 04:42:41 AM »

I'll just wait for Heavenly Father to explain things to me!   :)  He can explain it better.
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Ian 155

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Re: John 5:37 Seeing and hearing God
« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2014, 03:47:16 AM »

this has been a good discussion ,I learned much

I leave it  with this scripture ...

Act 22:14  And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
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santgem

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Re: John 5:37 Seeing and hearing God
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2014, 09:27:54 AM »

this has been a good discussion ,I learned much

I leave it  with this scripture ...

Act 22:14  And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.


Greetings Ian,


i am glad that me too is learning.........

also, i leave it with this scripture....... and God said,

And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. Act 26:15
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Ian 155

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2014, 12:33:40 PM »

Greetings Santgen did u notice the next verse ?

Act 26:16  But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the   (ee)  which I will appear unto thee;..............  Brackets "my own"..
 ;)
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santgem

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2014, 03:43:08 AM »

Greetings Santgen did u notice the next verse ?

Act 26:16  But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the   (ee)  which I will appear unto thee;..............  Brackets "my own"..
 ;)


Greetings Ian,

this is the easiest way i can comprehend the scripture by NLT;

Now get to your feet! For I have appeared to you to appoint you as my servant and witness. You are to tell the world what you have seen and what I will show you in the future. NLT
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2014, 03:54:14 AM »


There is only One God.

As Ray mentioned before me, if God the Father is a separate entity, with a separate personality, with a separate existence; and if Jesus is a separate entity, with a separate personality, and a separate existence; then you have two Gods.

But the Scriptures teach over and over again that there is One God.

If you believe in two Gods, then you are a pagan with heathen, false beliefs.  It doesn't matter if the names of your gods are Father and Jesus, or Zeus and Apollo, or Wodin and Thor; you are deceived and do not believe in the One, True God.

The same if you believe in a trinity of three gods--father, son, and holy spirit---or all the other multiple gods of mankind---you are an ignorant pagan idol worshiper.

How do you pray to your false, multiple gods?  Fifteen minutes to the Father, then fifteen minutes to the Son, so that they don't feel slighted?

I have studied this subject for several years.  I have well over a hundred Scriptures to show there is only One God.  But they despise the Word of God.  They hate those who bring the Word of God.  Jesus told us not to give something of value to those who do not or can not appreciate it.

If any are interested in Truth, then read the attached from Ray.  Also read the end of Ray's article on his creed.  Only Jesus is our teacher, and only He can open up ones understanding.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13157.0.html

Still leaves us with more questions than answers... I've read that email a hundred times now. Didn't Dennis or Craig say that they often discussed this with Ray shortly before his death and that he wasn't able to make sense of it, even up until the end he didn't quite have it all there. I remember one of them mentioning that.

"To us there is one God: The Father...AND Jesus" - I understand very well the difference between a colon and a comma.... and yet it seems to become even more enigmatic when the colon is added though I do agree, it lines up much better with what Christ said. The one is the Father AND Son.

Alex
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 03:59:45 AM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Rene

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Still leaves us with more questions than answers... I've read that email a hundred times now. Didn't Dennis or Craig say that they often discussed this with Ray shortly before his death and that he wasn't able to make sense of it, even up until the end he didn't quite have it all there. I remember one of them mentioning that.

"To us there is one God: The Father...AND Jesus" - I understand very well the difference between a colon and a comma.... and yet it seems to become even more enigmatic when the colon is added though I do agree, it lines up much better with what Christ said. The one is the Father AND Son.

Alex


I love meditating and searching deeper into this subject.  Ray may not have fully understood this relationship between the Father and Jesus, but I believe Paul, an Apostle, certainly did. 

Eph 1:2-3 - "Favour unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed, be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing, in the heavenlies, in Christ.

Eph 4:3-6 - "Giving diligence to keep—the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting-bond of peace,  One body, and one spirit, even as ye were also called in one hope of your calling, One Lord, one faith, one immersion, One God and Father of all—who is over all, and through all, and in all.

1Tim 1:1-2 - "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus—by injunction of God our Saviour and Christ Jesus our hope. ... favour, mercy, peace, from God our Father, and Christ Jesus our Lord.

1Tim 2:5 - "For there is one God, one mediator also, between God and men,—a man—Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:18 - "Because, through Him, we have our introduction—we both—in one Spirit, unto the Father.


René
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John from Kentucky

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2014, 08:23:55 PM »

Ray understood the truth that God is One.  Just read the end of his creed, which I have attached below.  But as Ray said somewhere before, "There is a difference in knowing a truth and being able to explain a truth."  Ray did not have the time or energy at the end to fully explain this truth.

I talked to Ray on the phone about this.  I said I was stunned at where he was going with this enigma of God matter, and I thought most members on the Forum wouldn't get it.  Ray told me we must all follow where the Spirit leads.  I respected his wishes and did not discuss this matter further with him.

But at the end of Ray's creed, where he says Jesus is God's autobiography, I immediately understood what Ray was saying.

It doesn't take great intelligence to understand, just knowledge of what the English word "autobiography" means.

When someone writes an autobiography, are they writing about someone else?  Or.  Are they writing about themselves?  Easy peasy.

http://bible-truths.com/Creed.htm


Actually, I have accumulated multiple Scriptures that prove the truth of Ray's creed.  However, it would be a waste of my time to present them.  Only God's Spirit can give understanding of spiritual truths.

In 1 Corinthians 8:6, Paul presents one of the master Scriptures, which clearly explains the nature of God.  But who believes it?  Most have to explain it away.

However, in the Scripture just below, in 1 Cor. 8:7, Paul states, However not all men have this knowledge...  Paul was speaking to the Church.  Few had this knowledge 2,000 years ago, and few of the chosen ones have this knowledge today.  Which is by the will of God.  I believe it will be the age to come when Jesus explains the nature of God to His Elect.  But I thank God (through Ray) that He gave me a foretaste of this understanding.  I find it very comforting.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2014, 09:02:19 PM »

Quote
Actually, I have accumulated multiple Scriptures that prove the truth of Ray's creed.  However, it would be a waste of my time to present them.  Only God's Spirit can give understanding of spiritual truths.

Then it should not be a problem for you to wait patiently.

Rom 8:25  But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
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John from Kentucky

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Re: John 5:37
« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2014, 09:18:22 PM »

Quote
Actually, I have accumulated multiple Scriptures that prove the truth of Ray's creed.  However, it would be a waste of my time to present them.  Only God's Spirit can give understanding of spiritual truths.

Then it should not be a problem for you to wait patiently.

Rom 8:25  But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.


No problemo Dennis.  I'm a big fat oyster with a pearl inside.   ;D ;D ;D
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