> General Discussions
John 5:37
theophilus:
--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on May 18, 2014, 06:02:19 PM ---
--- Quote ---Actually, I have accumulated multiple Scriptures that prove the truth of Ray's creed. However, it would be a waste of my time to present them. Only God's Spirit can give understanding of spiritual truths.
--- End quote ---
Then it should not be a problem for you to wait patiently.
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
--- End quote ---
I suspect that accumulating those multiple scriptures took you some time. If you have them saved in a text file, it would only take a copy and paste action in order to present them for the rest of us. It wouldn't even take you five minutes to share this info. ;)
On another note, I would say that those scriptures "support" or "back up" Ray's creed. If those scriptures "prove" the truth of Ray's creed, then anyone of us could benefit from this list of scriptures, wouldn't you say?
I do understand what an autobiography is. In my own words, it is the story of someone's life; it could be abridged or unabridged. I think God's autobiography (to use Ray's term) is an abridged one, since not everything that Jesus said or did or experienced or lived was written down. We don't even know how Jesus reacted to so many things that He experienced. We have close to nothing about His childhood! How did Jesus deal with sexual temptations of any kind? Which illnesses did He suffer, as a child and as an adult? How did He come to the realization that He was THE Son of God? Did the Father reveal to Him all about what He was and His mission, or did Jesus remember everything on His own? As a child, did He remember being with the Father before His incarnation? Did He ever fall in love? Did He love another woman other than His mother (I'm not including His sisters)? So many questions!!!
Years ago, I had a thought about God knowing what it was to be a human being. How would He know what it feels to be us? Well, THROUGH Jesus Christ He would know--through THEIR shared oneness. But to say that Jesus is God's very own authorized autobiography is to say that Jesus himself is the God. Moreover, we would have to conclude that the God DIED; but who was in charge of the universe while He was dead? God's spirit? ::) But if He was dead, and dead IS DEAD, how could He bring Himself back to life?
I think someone wants to have his cake and eat it too. At the same time that oneness between the Father and Son is affirmed, a clear separation is also affirmed. We're told that 1 + 1 = 1 AND 2 also! Trinitarians invoke the arithmetic operation of multiplication and tell us that 1x1x1 = 1. Ta-da!!! Problem solved! We cannot ever get 3 as a result of multiplying 1 by itself three times! But we do have THREE ones. We could even multiply 1 by itself many more times and we would still get 1 as the answer. Benny Hinn claims in one of his teachings that there are 9, YES! 9!, persons in the Godhead. Multiplication is very useful, didn't you know? ;)
I really don't get it that the teaching of, say, the forgiveness of sins can be explained to a believer with the help of the scriptures. They are not left with "If God doesn't reveal it to you, you will never understand it." But when it comes to the nature of God the principle of individual divine revelation is invoked. Hmmm!
theophilus:
--- Quote from: Ian 155 on May 20, 2014, 06:59:58 AM ---Interesting - Col 1:15
The Greek for "firstborn" is proto with tikto which would give us "firstborn," and that is what we find here in Colossians 1:15. The Greek for "first created" would be proto with ktizo, and it is not used here.
Second, the biblical use of the word "firstborn" is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also mean "pre-eminence." In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him . . . I also shall make him My first-born" (NASB). As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family, was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence.
Third, firstborn is also a title that is transferable:
Gen. 41:51-52, "And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my fatherī's house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction" (NASB)
Jer. 31:9, " . . . for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn (NASB)."
Scripture best interprets scripture. Firstborn does not require a meaning of first created "Firstborn" can mean the first born person in a family, and it can also be a title of preeminence which is transferable. That is obvious since Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1,14) and is also the first born son of Mary. In addition, He is the pre-eminent one in all things.
AND WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM
--- End quote ---
And the inescapable conclusion is: WE SHALL BE LIKE GOD HIMSELF!
John from Kentucky:
--- Quote from: theophilus on May 20, 2014, 01:06:51 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on May 18, 2014, 06:02:19 PM ---
--- Quote ---Actually, I have accumulated multiple Scriptures that prove the truth of Ray's creed. However, it would be a waste of my time to present them. Only God's Spirit can give understanding of spiritual truths.
--- End quote ---
Then it should not be a problem for you to wait patiently.
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
--- End quote ---
I suspect that accumulating those multiple scriptures took you some time. If you have them saved in a text file, it would only take a copy and paste action in order to present them for the rest of us. It wouldn't even take you five minutes to share this info. ;)
On another note, I would say that those scriptures "support" or "back up" Ray's creed. If those scriptures "prove" the truth of Ray's creed, then anyone of us could benefit from this list of scriptures, wouldn't you say?
I do understand what an autobiography is. In my own words, it is the story of someone's life; it could be abridged or unabridged. I think God's autobiography (to use Ray's term) is an abridged one, since not everything that Jesus said or did or experienced or lived was written down. We don't even know how Jesus reacted to so many things that He experienced. We have close to nothing about His childhood! How did Jesus deal with sexual temptations of any kind? Which illnesses did He suffer, as a child and as an adult? How did He come to the realization that He was THE Son of God? Did the Father reveal to Him all about what He was and His mission, or did Jesus remember everything on His own? As a child, did He remember being with the Father before His incarnation? Did He ever fall in love? Did He love another woman other than His mother (I'm not including His sisters)? So many questions!!!
Years ago, I had a thought about God knowing what it was to be a human being. How would He know what it feels to be us? Well, THROUGH Jesus Christ He would know--through THEIR shared oneness. But to say that Jesus is God's very own authorized autobiography is to say that Jesus himself is the God. Moreover, we would have to conclude that the God DIED; but who was in charge of the universe while He was dead? God's spirit? ::) But if He was dead, and dead IS DEAD, how could He bring Himself back to life?
I think someone wants to have his cake and eat it too. At the same time that oneness between the Father and Son is affirmed, a clear separation is also affirmed. We're told that 1 + 1 = 1 AND 2 also! Trinitarians invoke the arithmetic operation of multiplication and tell us that 1x1x1 = 1. Ta-da!!! Problem solved! We cannot ever get 3 as a result of multiplying 1 by itself three times! But we do have THREE ones. We could even multiply 1 by itself many more times and we would still get 1 as the answer. Benny Hinn claims in one of his teachings that there are 9, YES! 9!, persons in the Godhead. Multiplication is very useful, didn't you know? ;)
I really don't get it that the teaching of, say, the forgiveness of sins can be explained to a believer with the help of the scriptures. They are not left with "If God doesn't reveal it to you, you will never understand it." But when it comes to the nature of God the principle of individual divine revelation is invoked. Hmmm!
--- End quote ---
You do not have a clue what you're talking about, not a clue.
And no, you do not know what an autobiography is. The explanation you gave is of a biography. You need to educate yourself as to what an autobiography is. In Ray's Creed, he was contrasting a biography with an autobiography. Two different words, with different meanings.
As to Scriptures, I am old fashioned. I still read and use books. I print Scriptures out on paper and organize them by subject matter following the scripture that says, "Line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.
Another thing you do not understand is that all understanding of scriptural truth comes from God and God alone. His Words are Spirit, and only the Spirit of God gives understanding. No human can ever understand any scripture solely by human understanding.
Jesus also tells us not to give something of value to someone who cannot appreciate or understand the value of a truth.
Finally, the Forum does have a no teaching rule, which limits how much we can discuss certain matters.
cjwood:
oh dear God, here it goes again. ::)
cj
santgem:
--- Quote from: Kat on May 20, 2014, 09:04:22 AM ---
--- Quote from: santgem on May 20, 2014, 12:23:30 AM ---Greetings everyone!
Trivia!
Did you know that after Jesus comes out of the Father, God the Father can not create things without Jesus Christ............ ???huh!??????what...%^&*()_%$#@!_+(*&DUH!!!! ::) :-\ :( ;)
--- End quote ---
I'm thinking you are referring to this Scripture.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
I understand your comment, but I don't see how this puts any limits on the Father. I consider it this way, that Jesus Christ was brought forth to be the Creator of THIS creation, that is the "all things" the Scripture is speaking of. The Son was brought to be as that part of the Father (God) for the purpose of this creation, it is "for Him." The Father chose to do it this way, but that was His determination, not a limitation of how He had to do it and certainly does not limit Him in any other way.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
p.s. We are all studying deeply into the Scripture in search of the truth, it is a blessing to be able to study here together with like minded people until we all come into the unity of faith in God.
Eph 4:13 until all of us are united in the faith and in the full knowledge of God's Son, and until we attain mature adulthood and the full standard of development in the Messiah.
--- End quote ---
Hello Kat,
Greetings!
i will make myself clear, i am not and never thinking that i put any limits on the Father.
(thanks Kat for the response that you gave me the opportunity to explain more)
As you all know that most of the people go directly to God without Jesus.
They are praying directly and asking God without Jesus.
They know God but they don't know Jesus! ??? ???
They say that never the Father had the son for he is not human, blah, blah, blah and some other things!
What am i saying is that;
In this present world, we would only know Jesus and the only God Jesus, until God the Father will be all in all! And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.1Co 15:28
God the Father can do everything without the help of anything but he loves the Son and it is only through the Son, It is always through Jesus, and even the Father's will!
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.Jhn 3:35
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