bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Need Account Help?  Email bibletruths.forum@gmail.com   

Forgotten password reminders does not work. Contact the email above and state what you want your password changed to. (it must be at least 8 characters)

Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down

Author Topic: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will  (Read 4943 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Mike Gagne

  • Guest
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2014, 11:44:00 PM »

If God doesn't give you a experience in evil how will you know evil? If he doesn't give you a experience in good how will you know good? To God the darkness and the light are alike ! They are a expression of love. When God brings you through them/ good and evil you learn his righteous judgements and that's what I am saying, I am going  through  His judgements! God isn't concerned with sin, it is tool to bring about sons. And yes we will be sons!...Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. (Isaiah 45:11 KJV)... Anyhow All in love...Mike
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 12:25:59 AM by Mike Gagne »
Logged

Mike Gagne

  • Guest
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2014, 12:11:21 AM »

Hi Alex  ! Pay attention here!! Didn't LRay teach you that Jesus only taught in parables? And yes in what you call the resurrection they will be judged for there works !  But the first fruits are learning his righteous judgements now! And the rest will Learn later! All in love..Mike :)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 12:16:44 AM by Mike Gagne »
Logged

lilitalienboi16

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1870
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2014, 12:29:08 AM »

If God doesn't give you a experience in evil how will you know evil? If he doesn't give you a experience in good how will you know good? To God the darkness and the light are alike ! They are a expression of love. When God brings you through them/ good and evil you learn his righteous judgements and that's what I saying, I am going  through  His judgements! God isn't concerned with sin, it is tool to bring about sons. And yes we will be sons!...Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. (Isaiah 45:11 KJV)... Anyhow All in love...Mike
We are in agreement that good and evil contrast one another and that one cannot exist without the other, at least not in a state that we could comprehend.

There are plenty people around the world who are experiencing good and evil and yet are learning nothing about righteousness. Its not good and evil that teaches us righteousness. It is God's judgments.

Isaiah 26:9 "for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." It doesn't say, "For when thy good and evil are in the earth, the inhabitants will learn righteousness.

Also, it is through judgement that God's grace can teach us righteousness by His spirit:

Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God [God's divine influence upon our hearts] that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

and

Hebrews 12:5-11 "And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

You are not learning righteousness because of good and evil. You are learning righteousness because God is judging you because you are accountable for your actions, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and through His judgement He is teaching you by His spirit acting upon your heart--righteousness. This chastisement becomes plainly visible by our fruit.

Galatians 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

As for this whole experience of good and evil, what purpose does it serve? I suppose many, many purposes but the best decleration I know of its purpose is this;

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

I don't think there is a verse though that states explicitely, that we learn righteousness by experiencing good and evil. No. That is only come through judgement and we are judged by our works, the works we are HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR.

God be with you,
Alex

P.S. Yes, Jesus did speak in parables, the Word of God is one big parable.  I did quote a parable, you are right. It however, does not detract from the point that was being made. There are many layers of truths to a parable.

P.P.S. Also, I think God is very concerned with sin, one of the big messages of the new testament, and in fact the old testament was, repent of your sins and turn from your iniquities. Jesus died for our sins. The death of the Son of God should not be laid to nothing.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 12:33:47 AM by lilitalienboi16 »
Logged
1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Dave in Tenn

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4131
    • FaceBook David Sanderson
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2014, 12:44:59 AM »

Yes, He is creating sons and daughters.

Hebrews 12.

Mike, I don't want to argue over varying understandings of what "accountable" means.  I've beat that horse senseless.  The first time you used, it was you who chose...even though a combination of multitudes of influences, beliefs, and circumstances (brought about by Sovereign God) coupled with your own weakness and (likely) lust (the way you were made--and all of us were, in our own way) led you to do what you absolutely could not have avoided.  And then addiction happened--which only multiplied those influences, beliefs and circumstances which, when coupled with your susceptibility for addiction (which was also there outside of your own will and doing) caused you to continue. 

Then the Lord God said, in effect--"enough is enough."  And He used His faith and grace and another set of influences, beliefs, and circumstances known only to you (and likely not completely known EVEN to you) to deliver you from that pattern.  To my mind, this is the SCOURGING referred to in Hebrews 12.  NOW, you are under a different multitude of influences, beliefs and circumstances leading you to a different outcome...all ordained of God out of Love.  Yet (and I hope this is Good News) you are not simply predestined, but predestined to good works, which the Lord has foreordained that you should walk in them. 

Thank God, He has foreordained ALL to follow this pattern (each in his/her own way), but the timing of this is in HIS hands...and neither LIFE nor DEATH can separate us from the Love of God.  The world at large, and the greater part of the world of Christendom don't believe this, however.  Hell, they can't even agree on what constitutes "good works".

I'm in there somewhere.  Everything I've ever done, it has been ME doing it.  But everything I've ever done has been--at the moment I did it--not without cause.  Let me know if I've missed the mark completely with you.  I'm pretty sure, however, that you currently think that 'to not use' is a better way to live than 'to use'.  Sounds like you thought that even when you were 'using'...at least when it got away from you.       
Logged
Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Kat

  • Guest
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2014, 12:58:51 AM »


Hi Kat!  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29 KJV).    For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV).   Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: (Galatians 1:4 KJV).    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Hebrews 1:3 KJV).   So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:28 KJV).  Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (1 Peter 2:24 KJV).   

                                            Well I don't see anything to be accountable for according to theses scriptures... I have used scriptures in this string that really says what I am saying.  Here's the last thing I will post on this, here is a man trying to be accountable to God.....         Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said, Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. Then Job answered the Lord, and said, Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further. Then answered the Lord unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him? Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty. Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him. Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret. Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee. (Job 40:1-14 KJV)..... :) All in love...Mike

Mike you said, "I don't see anything to be accountable for according to theses scriptures." But are you going to just disregard all the Scripture that I have already posted that clearly show we are to be held account, either now are in the age to come?

Psa 119:160  The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Logged

Mike Gagne

  • Guest
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2014, 01:40:10 AM »

Hi Alex,  yes there are plenty of people around the world experiencing good and evil, but God isn't judging them. I never said good and evil teach you righteousness. My typing should have said when he brings you through them you learn his righteousness from his judgements!  It is him that brings you through them, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? (Daniel 4:35 KJV)..( Your quote...you are not learning righteousness because of good and evil,you are learning righteousness because God is judging you because you are accountable for you actions.)  Okay if God gives me judgements in my addiction and that's how he holds me accountable, is this what you are saying? He gives me the carnal nature and He gives me the addiction and then judges me which makes me accountable? 
Logged

Mike Gagne

  • Guest
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2014, 01:56:16 AM »

Hi Alex! Yes you are right in saying  the the death of Jesus should not be laid to waste concerning sin! What I should have said is the God doesn't look at sin like a carnal man does! good night! All in love... Mike  :)          PS Dave and Kat  I will reply to you tomorrow , thanks you guys...:)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 01:58:17 AM by Mike Gagne »
Logged

Dave in Tenn

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4131
    • FaceBook David Sanderson
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2014, 03:04:48 AM »

No, Mike  He doesn't judge you "because you are accountable".  You are accountable because you do what you do.  He judges you, chastises you, "graces" you, to teach you.  All that because He loves you and has bigger plans for you than "guilty/not guilty" and "punishment/no punishment" or "heaven/hell".

He is responsible.  And even better, He TAKES responsibility!  He died for the sins of the world, after all, and did so even while we were yet sinners.  It's His will that the world learn righteousness.  His will be done.

We are held accountable and must give account (not just for bad, but for good) because we don't LEARN without accountability...and if we should, then we don't know what we've learned UNTIL we give account.

Jesus gave the message about the Pharisee who prayed "Thank you that I am not as this publican" and the publican who prayed "God have mercy on me a sinner" and asked which one returned to his house justified.  Among other things, the publican gave a true account.  Don't be afraid of this word.  All the scripture you shared and Kat and Alex shared is true and don't contradict.           
Logged
Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Mike Gagne

  • Guest
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2014, 10:02:03 AM »

Good morning!  Meaning of account: 1.
a report or description of an event or experience.
"a detailed account of what has been achieved"
synonyms:   description, report, version, story, narration, narrative, statement, explanation, exposition, delineation, portrayal, tale; More
an interpretation or rendering of a piece of music.
"a lively account of Offenbach's score"
         I am okay with giving a account!!      Meaning of accountable, 1.
(of a person, organization, or institution) required or expected to justify actions or decisions; responsible.
"government must be accountable to its citizens"
synonyms:   responsible, liable, answerable; More.... I can't see me being accountable if it is God doing the work in me!  If I am doing the work then God is no longer sovereign! Is this agreeable? All in love...:) Mike
Logged

Mike Gagne

  • Guest
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2014, 10:21:25 AM »

Hi Dave! Is it really me that does it? Or do I just Go through it and experience it?  If He does all his will and good pleasure , and none can stay his hand how do I do anything?  Therefore how could I be accountable? Yes give a description/account, but to be accountable for his actions does not make sense to me! Because if he is doing the work in me they it is His actions for His purpose, and how could I be accountable for that! I know some don't think that God makes you sin, but He in fact made you who you are, a carnal man who hates God and wants nothing to do with him, a sinning beast!  Anyhow off to work I go, and may Gods day for you be filled with joy!  :)  Mike
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 10:23:29 AM by Mike Gagne »
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2014, 11:18:15 AM »


Mike, you cannot blame God for your sins (though He does take ultimate responsibility), because God does not actually tempt anybody to comment the sins that they do.

Jas 1:13  Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
v. 14  But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1744.0.html ---

 ALL IS OF GOD, but not is all of God directly.  God created man--man SINS, God if free from sin and never sins or MAKES OR FORCES anyone to sin. Neither does He FORCE people to be rich or famous. God created man and man chooses what he does based on the strongest motivation in his heart.
And most people's heart consists of lust, lies, blasphemy and the like.
 
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of HIS OWN LUSTS [whether for bad and evil things or for for what we may perceive as good things which may not be good or righteous things], and enticed" (James 1:13-14).
 
Man has the ability to make choices. He does not have the ability to make choices that are free from any cause. The "cause" of most of our choices is our mind and heart.  And of the abundance of our heart, our mind thinks, our tongue speaks, and in our body we take physical action.  Only God can give us a "new" and pure heart.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1937.0.html ---------

Everyone has the ability to make choice, but that choice is based on SOME CAUSE, and that cause is what renders the choice to be not free.
 
God foresaw EVERYTHING in His creation BEFORE the creation. Therefore, nothing is "free" to go contrary to what God already knows MUST AND WILL BE!  "For it is GOD which works in you both to WILL and to DO of His Good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).  We must first believe the Scriptures before e will be able to understand the Scriptures.
-------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 12:45:39 PM by Kat »
Logged

Dave in Tenn

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4131
    • FaceBook David Sanderson
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2014, 08:18:14 PM »

Hi Dave! Is it really me that does it? Or do I just Go through it and experience it?  If He does all his will and good pleasure , and none can stay his hand how do I do anything?  Therefore how could I be accountable? Yes give a description/account, but to be accountable for his actions does not make sense to me! Because if he is doing the work in me they it is His actions for His purpose, and how could I be accountable for that! I know some don't think that God makes you sin, but He in fact made you who you are, a carnal man who hates God and wants nothing to do with him, a sinning beast!  Anyhow off to work I go, and may Gods day for you be filled with joy!  :)  Mike

Mike, don't ask me to accuse you of having done anything.  Perhaps you are the only person I have met who hasn't done anything.   :D  Me?  I've done and still do everything I've done and do...AND I've "gone through it and experienced it".  Those things aren't mutually exclusive, nor do they have the same shade of meaning.  Peter (and the others) denied the Lord.  It really wasn't until AFTER he did what he did that he FULLY "went through and experienced" WHY he did what he did.  Do you think he wept because somebody else did it?  Yet, looking back he remembered that it was the LORD Himself who "prophesied" what he would do.  He couldn't have done differently, but he did what he did.       
Logged
Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Mike Gagne

  • Guest
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2014, 09:31:44 PM »

Kat, if I can make a choice, then when I hated sticking a needle in my arm and wanted to and tried to stop several times why couldn't I ?  My choice would be to stop but why couldn't I , then after years of struggling and hated it I stop, why? Let me answer that, because God granted it! If my choice was to stop why couldn't I ? Let me answers that,because God wouldn't let me! There where a lot of things I wanted to do but couldn't why, why, you guys are dancing around the sovereignty of God, none of you have commented on any of the scriptures I stated and that's okay, but is it because you don't believe them Kat?   Dave, Peter had in his mind and heart to die that night with Jesus! Let me tell you why he denied Jesus, because God wouldn't let him do anything else, and maybe that's why he wept, because he wanted to do something/his choice, but God was sovereign and Peter wasn't.  Alex you are a wise man and I respect your understanding and your thoughts. Thank you all, All in love...:)
Logged

pylady

  • Guest
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2014, 11:04:52 PM »

Hi Mike,  Romans 14:12 "So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God."   We can't deny this scripture.  It's there in our Bibles! 
But what does it mean this "giving account"?  I'm going to give you my personal belief.  I don't believe we must give an account so we can be punished or condemned for our sins.  Nor do I believe it's for God's sake because He already knows everything we've done, indeed, every inclination of our hearts.
Giving an account (accountability) is for our sake.  It is part of our judgement - and remember judgement is, yes, chastisement, but also discipline and teaching.   Indeed being held accountable is a necessary part of our salvation.
We know know judgement and salvation are gradual processes.  The elect are being held accountable NOW, as they are being judged.  Part of being judged is being taught.  How can we learn if God does not open our eyes to the beast within us.  When He opens our eyes we say "Yes, Lord, I am a beast and I've acted like beast my whole life.  Please, Lord, live in me, kill the beast and all his sinful ways." 
That is what accountablity means to me - Looking at myself thru Christ Jesus eyes, and owning up to what I am.
We are the beast with no good in us.  Yes, God made us this way. For a purpose - when we see ourselves as we really are we know there is no salvation, no hope for us without Christ Jesus..He is our salvation.

Salvation is a processs.  Part of that process is having our eyes open to our hopelessly sinful nature.  Seeing ourselves as we really are, admitting our sins, is being accountable, and is part of judgement. It is Christ Jesus bring us to salvation.

thanks for letting me put my 2 cent in.

         Cindy
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2014, 11:43:44 PM »


Mike, of course I believe all the Scripture that you have posted, they are just part of the equation though, all the other Scriptures must be considered as well. I cannot say I can fully relate to what you have been through, because I have not been through anything like that, but the Apostle Paul did mention having just such feelings as you have talked about of helplessness to the pulls of the flesh.

Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
v. 15  For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
v. 16  If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
v. 17  But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
v. 18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
v. 19  For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
v. 20  Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Yes Paul certainly understood about the sovereignty of God, probably better than anybody else, and we have his words that we shall give account.

Rom 14:12  So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

I will give you another email from Ray because his articles are the reason we have joined here for these discussions, so we can strive to help one another in understanding these things. Now after all of this I do not feel you have come here to seek like minded fellowship, but to try and booster your own ideas of what the Scripture says about these things.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html --------------------

Dear Whirlwind:

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?"  It is BOTH.  Listen:  God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE.  That's it. That's all there is to it.  That IS the principle. That IS the Truth.  That IS what the Bible teaches.  It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices."  You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation.  It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you.  God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS?  Well, does He?  Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls?  That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will.  They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right?  Wrong, wrong, wrong!  Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things.  And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.  Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money.  God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak.  Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.

I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it.  Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!

God be with you,

Ray
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 12:12:17 AM by Kat »
Logged

Mike Gagne

  • Guest
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2014, 12:39:14 AM »

Kat, I am not trying to booster my ideas on scriptures, I am trying to understand how we will be accountable, I can see giving a account, two different meanings! Anyhow I guess if I am not like minded they I must be lower then you, and that's okay I have always been lower then most! And I will not bother this website any more.
Logged

Dave in Tenn

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4131
    • FaceBook David Sanderson
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2014, 01:22:17 AM »

No, not really two different meanings.  You just need to use a better dictionary.   ;D  Forget the whole "Accountable" word if it bothers you.  It seems to be a stumbling block for some.  Trust me, the whole stupid english language is not worth the heartache.

Mike, seems like what you are describing is similar to Pharaoh in his dealings with Moses and/or Aaron.  There came a time when he WANTED to let the children of Israel go, but the LORD hardened his heart for His own purposes.  "Wanting"  and "choosing" are not the same thing either.  In the end, he CHOSE not to let them go UNTIL HE CHOSE TO LET THEM GO.  The evidence is--HE DIDN'T LET THEM GO...and then he did.

Who gets credit for that?  God does.  Who takes responsibility for hardening Pharaoh's heart against his own former wishes for a season?  God does.
 
Then you have Peter.   I don't doubt that Peter wanted and intended to "not deny".  I don't think he was lying about his wishes and intentions.  I just think he was wrong about what he would do when the time came.  His "will" didn't match his "imagination".  This "experience of evil" is to humble us.

Who "prophesied" what Peter would do?  Jesus did.  Who knew Peter better than Peter knew himself?  Jesus did.
Peter and Pharaoh are not the same, but they both have one thing in common.
 
When I was a young christian just starting college, I fancied myself a pretty devoted believer.  The first day in a History class in my first semester, the professor asked derisively if there was anybody present who believed there was a God.  I COULD NOT raise my own hand...and that was to simply acknowledge a vague belief in some form of God as a thing or a person or whatever--nothing compared to what Peter was facing.

Talk about being humbled.  I'm STILL humbled by that forty years later.  I can't go back in time and "fix" that.  There was a reason (many, actually) WHY I was unable to raise my hand.  It's been in understanding THOSE that I've experienced the "good" from that event.  But it wasn't "good" at the time, just "good for me".

How's that for "better than somebody else"?  You actually may have nothing on me as far as being "worse than others".  I know VERY well that we can't do what we want just because we want to...even if we really, REALLY want to.  That too is of God.

Even if we DON'T want to...that too is of God.   But that's not the end of things. 


Hi Mike,  Romans 14:12 "So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God."   We can't deny this scripture.  It's there in our Bibles! 
But what does it mean this "giving account"?  I'm going to give you my personal belief.  I don't believe we must give an account so we can be punished or condemned for our sins.  Nor do I believe it's for God's sake because He already knows everything we've done, indeed, every inclination of our hearts.
Giving an account (accountability) is for our sake.  It is part of our judgement - and remember judgement is, yes, chastisement, but also discipline and teaching.   Indeed being held accountable is a necessary part of our salvation.
We know know judgement and salvation are gradual processes.  The elect are being held accountable NOW, as they are being judged.  Part of being judged is being taught.  How can we learn if God does not open our eyes to the beast within us.  When He opens our eyes we say "Yes, Lord, I am a beast and I've acted like beast my whole life.  Please, Lord, live in me, kill the beast and all his sinful ways." 
That is what accountablity means to me - Looking at myself thru Christ Jesus eyes, and owning up to what I am.
We are the beast with no good in us.  Yes, God made us this way. For a purpose - when we see ourselves as we really are we know there is no salvation, no hope for us without Christ Jesus..He is our salvation.

Salvation is a processs.  Part of that process is having our eyes open to our hopelessly sinful nature.  Seeing ourselves as we really are, admitting our sins, is being accountable, and is part of judgement. It is Christ Jesus bring us to salvation.

thanks for letting me put my 2 cent in.

         Cindy

yep.
Logged
Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Rene

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1451
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2014, 10:26:21 AM »

Hi Mike,  Romans 14:12 "So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God."   We can't deny this scripture.  It's there in our Bibles! 
But what does it mean this "giving account"?  I'm going to give you my personal belief.  I don't believe we must give an account so we can be punished or condemned for our sins.  Nor do I believe it's for God's sake because He already knows everything we've done, indeed, every inclination of our hearts.
Giving an account (accountability) is for our sake.  It is part of our judgement - and remember judgement is, yes, chastisement, but also discipline and teaching.   Indeed being held accountable is a necessary part of our salvation.
We know know judgement and salvation are gradual processes.  The elect are being held accountable NOW, as they are being judged.  Part of being judged is being taught.  How can we learn if God does not open our eyes to the beast within us.  When He opens our eyes we say "Yes, Lord, I am a beast and I've acted like beast my whole life.  Please, Lord, live in me, kill the beast and all his sinful ways." 
That is what accountablity means to me - Looking at myself thru Christ Jesus eyes, and owning up to what I am.
We are the beast with no good in us.  Yes, God made us this way. For a purpose - when we see ourselves as we really are we know there is no salvation, no hope for us without Christ Jesus..He is our salvation.

Salvation is a processs.  Part of that process is having our eyes open to our hopelessly sinful nature.  Seeing ourselves as we really are, admitting our sins, is being accountable, and is part of judgement. It is Christ Jesus bring us to salvation.

thanks for letting me put my 2 cent in.

Cindy


This is what I was trying to say earlier, but Cindy explained it so much better. :)

René
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 10:32:08 AM by Rene »
Logged

Rene

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1451
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2014, 10:33:14 AM »


Kat, I am not trying to booster my ideas on scriptures, I am trying to understand how we will be accountable, I can see giving a account, two different meanings! Anyhow I guess if I am not like minded they I must be lower then you, and that's okay I have always been lower then most! And I will not bother this website any more.



Mike, you do not have to run away because we are not agreeing with you.  Humility is a part of the process. ;)

René

Logged

Mike Gagne

  • Guest
Re: It's Scientific, We Have No Free Will
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2014, 01:04:04 AM »

Thank you Alex, Kat, Dave, Rene, and Cindy, I now see it. And it makes sense!  I am a little rough around the edges, a man with little education and sometimes I have to go over things many times to fit it together! I am also having a struggle with this sovereignty and choices thing, but just reading that link you posted Kat kinda helps but I will keep going over it because I don't  think God brought me here to keep my eyes closed! Sorry for rudeness!  PS Rene there's no place left to run! If God brought me here to humble me then let it His will be done!  Mike  :)
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.079 seconds with 28 queries.