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[Ian 155]

Hi all ,

I have been spending a wee bit of time checking these particular scriptures out and meditating on them.
NOT SURE IF RAY HAS SAID MUCH ABOUT THESE BUT TO MY UNDERSTANDING THERE ARE 2 CREATIONS of Man Gen 1 v 26 & 27 then Adam whom he placed Separately in"the Garden" Gen 2 v 8 .I have always thought this is one and the same however when Cain was exiled Gen 4 v  17 it does mention a wife possibly from Nod - i.e not from Adam
 
then Chapter 5 gets even more interesting ...
Gen 5 v 2 Male and Female created he them and called their name Adam             

in this genealogy of chapter 5, Cain nor Able are mentioned, but starts with Seth

these two creations Gen 1 v 26 and Gen 2 v 8 to me are possibly those called and those chosen ??

New testament talks of the 1st Adam in relation to Jesus 1Cor 15v45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a life-giving spirit.

please pray bout this before posting I have a feeling this is a parable of note...

Ian

[John from Kentucky]

I don't know what praying before posting has to do with it.  What will be, will be.

Jesus is the Word, and He wrote both the Old and New Testaments.  He just didn't start using parables in the New Testament.  It has been long known that the creation accounts have deep spiritual meanings.

Adam is the Hebrew name for mankind, humankind.  Eve is the name of the mother of all living.

The great false church and the funnymentalists teach that the creation stories are literal.

Only the Spirit of God gives understanding to those to whom it is given.

[Kat]

Hi Ian,

Here are a few more things to think about.

Gen 6:2  that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

Who would have been calling Adam and his line "sons of God?" Probably those people he had told God had created him. And who were the "daughters of men?" The children of the 'other' people around them.

The New Testament many times refers to the Gentiles, the nations, strangers, Aliens and often called dogs and made them slaves... Why? They were those people outside the line of Adam and not to inherit the promises given to Abraham and down to the Israelites and the Jews of the New Testament times.

Gal 3:16  Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made.

The people that were not 'God's people' were considered little more valuable than an animal, very much looked down on, because they were not the chosen people, not from the line of Adam and Eve. Paul went to these Gentiles and knew very well who they were and here is what he spoke of these people.

Eph 2:11  Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—
v. 12  that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Rene]

NOT SURE IF RAY HAS SAID MUCH ABOUT THESE BUT TO MY UNDERSTANDING THERE ARE 2 CREATIONS of Man Gen 1 v 26 & 27 then Adam whom he placed Separately in"the Garden" Gen 2 v 8 .I have always thought this is one and the same however when Cain was exiled Gen 4 v  17 it does mention a wife possibly from Nod - i.e not from Adam
 

Hi Ian,

Ray spoke briefly on this subject at the 2008 Nashville Conference.  Here is what he said:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9130.0.html


                                                                  FIRST HUMANS

Now I talked a little, not during the conference so much, but in some of the bull sessions in the evening we had. Where it was said, ‘were Adam and Eve the first humans?’ Well, I said, not necessarily and I gave numerous reasons for that. I thought of another one here just yesterday, so I’ll throw this out just for fun and just to think about. I’m not making some big stand on this.

I used to think where it says God formed man from the dust of the ground (Gen. 2:7), He’s just going back to explain in more detail what He did in chapter 1. But I’m thinking that’s not tenable either. 

So let’s ask ourselves, when God created herbs and things, did He just create one? One piece of moss, one blade of grass? Or did He make grass, a lot of grass and a lot of things. Well let me explain this, because I don’t know if I did this at the conference. Notice where it says in verse 11.

Gen. 1:11  And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass…

“Let the earth bring forth grass,” now that’s an interesting statement. It doesn’t say God created - bara or made - asah, grass. Now to make something out of what already exists is to asah, you make it out of preexisting material. To create, bara in Hebrew, means you bring in something that did not exist before. But how do we get the first plant life on the earth? How did God do it? Does it say God created the trees, God created the grass? No. You can read it with your own eyes.  He said, “let the earth bring it forth.” Now can we believe it? Can we believe God made the earth in such a way that the earth could bring it forth, when He commanded it? Yes. Not aside from God, not without God, but at His command. He said “Let the earth bring forth the grass.”

Now notice there’s a progression. Let the earth bring forth and it says “the grass,” that word I think it is deshe, it just means green. Interesting. What do the scientists tell us is the first form of plant life on earth? Single cell microscopic algae, very tiny things that need little or no light. Now we have light, we read light in the above verses. The light does not because clean and clear until the next day, but there was light. Primitive type mosses and algae and things apparently do not require much light. 

But notice a progression, first it says, “brings forth grass (no. 1),” it says grass, but the word just means plant, green plant.

Gen. 1:11  the herb yielding seed (no. 2), and the fruit tree (no. 3) yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

Now what do science finds are the progression of plants? You start with the primitive, they can be somewhat advanced, until you finally have whole trees producing fruit. What is one of the last things in plant life that comes on the scene according to the geological table? It’s a very recent addition… flowers. Flowers are relatively new to plant life in the geological time scale.

So obviously He didn’t make one blade of grass or one piece of algae, there was a multitude. Now notice when we come over to verse 20.

Gen 1:20  And God said, let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creatures, that hath life.
 
Did He just make one male and one female fish or was there an abundance of them? Then we go on verse 21, “He made the great tanniyn.” Which I believe you know are the dinosaurs, the reptiles.

Then we have the cattle, verse 24.  Did He just make one cow and one bull, is that it? Well, it says He made cattle.

Well then when we come down to verse 26, it says “God said, Let Us make man…” But the Hebrew is ‘humanity.’ “Let us make humanity.” Did He really just make one man and one woman? That’s not what He did with all the other things, did He? Look at it.

Gen. 1:27  Let Us make humanity in Our image after Our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle…

Remember, I pointed out it doesn’t say let them have dominion over the great tanniyn, the dinosaurs. Why? Because they were extinct for 50 million years.

“In the image of God created He him.“ That’s what it says, but that’s not in the Hebrew. It just says, “In the image of God created.” That’s all, it doesn’t say “He him.” Concordant puts “created it.” God created it, humanity, it. So it just says “in the image of God created.” He created, but to make the English more understandable, they put in “…created He him.” God created him, but the “him” is not in there. 

“Male and female created.” Now in our translation, it says “male and female He created them.” So it’s pretty difficult to say, ‘well there was one man and one woman.’ He created humanity, He created humanity male and He created humanity female. Humanity, okay. 

Now when we come to Adam and Eve, He gives them a name and we know it’s just one. Are they the first ones though? Maybe not. Because we later have Cain, that says his sentence is too great, wherever I go, they will kill me (Gen. 4:13-14). Who will kill him? Who? There was only Abel and he killed Abel. So if there’s only Adam and Eve and their two sons, Cain and Abel… well Cain killed Abel, so now there’s only one man left, and his mother and father. He says to God, wherever I go, “anyone who finds me will kill me." Who? He killed the only other man alive on earth. Well if we interpret it that way, there are problems. Then Cain took a wife… so there’d be all these other things to contend with and so on. Alright.

[Ian 155]

Thanks guys - been out of computer land for a while ... couple of things have arisen in my studies

correct John My limited understanding Adam  (humankind) or (Mankind ) not just singular - Gen 1v26 Male and female he created them..

next chapter Adam created for the sole purpose of Tilling the soil or preparing the spiritual ground  or John the baptizer( eden perhaps a type of canaan/heaven )

all woman come out of Man all men come out of man and yet all come out of God

Christ first referred himself "The Son OF Man" and he became at Gods choosing The Son Of God' -

why I said prayfully consider before posting is that it is not a cut and dry answer and JFK, would unravel  and rattle much of our lowly knowledge on our way to the kingdom -

"Have I not Chosen 12 of you ? yet one of you is a devil" with no reference to John of course

thinking aloud again - there is much Much more to this - it does not seem to interest members right now so perhaps place on the back burner

[John from Kentucky]

Thanks guys - been out of computer land for a while ... couple of things have arisen in my studies

correct John My limited understanding Adam  (humankind) or (Mankind ) not just singular - Gen 1v26 Male and female he created them..

next chapter Adam created for the sole purpose of Tilling the soil or preparing the spiritual ground  or John the baptizer( eden perhaps a type of canaan/heaven )

all woman come out of Man all men come out of man and yet all come out of God

Christ first referred himself "The Son OF Man" and he became at Gods choosing The Son Of God' -

why I said prayfully consider before posting is that it is not a cut and dry answer and JFK, would unravel  and rattle much of our lowly knowledge on our way to the kingdom -

"Have I not Chosen 12 of you ? yet one of you is a devil" with no reference to John of course

thinking aloud again - there is much Much more to this - it does not seem to interest members right now so perhaps place on the back burner

On the contrary, the subject is of immense interest.  I've been studying this for over 45 years.  However, we are limited in how far we can discuss these matters here.

Also remember, you must have at least two solid scriptural witnesses to establish any truth.  That is one way the Spirit keeps us on the correct path.

[AwesomeSavior]

Ian:

God as we all know is very creative. All we have to do is look at nature to see the proof. Unfortunately, godless scientists today are constantly trying to prove the Theory of Evolution as being more than a theory, but rather a reality. Their main attempts at this revolve around the discovery of fossilized remains of our supposed "distant cousins". But what if God actually did create different species that are similar in certain ways to Adam and Eve, but yet different enough from them to be unique? Perhaps these ancient finds are proof of God's creative genius at work, in one way to cause "strong delusion" upon evolutionists. Since these other creatures existed, they therefore surmise that we all evolved from them as well. I believe that could be what Ray was hinting at in his answer. What are your thoughts?

[Dave in Tenn]

With respect, I didn't descend from my 'cousins'--nobody does, nor does anybody claim to who knows what they are talking about.

Unless I can prove that my own paternal lineage was from a brother of Jesus, then I can make no claim to share His lineage--not even to Adam.  The ultimate forebear is GOD, not Adam, according to Scripture.  Everything else is assumption.  I'm not saying TRUE assumption, or FALSE assumption...just assumption.  Some of the same things that Ray mentioned concerning Cain are also in Scripture concerning the sons of Noah.  I can reconcile them without any problem.     

[Ian 155]

Ian:

God as we all know is very creative. All we have to do is look at nature to see the proof. Unfortunately, godless scientists today are constantly trying to prove the Theory of Evolution as being more than a theory, but rather a reality. Their main attempts at this revolve around the discovery of fossilized remains of our supposed "distant cousins". But what if God actually did create different species that are similar in certain ways to Adam and Eve, but yet different enough from them to be unique? Perhaps these ancient finds are proof of God's creative genius at work, in one way to cause "strong delusion" upon evolutionists. Since these other creatures existed, they therefore surmise that we all evolved from them as well. I believe that could be what Ray was hinting at in his answer. What are your thoughts?

Hey Awesome,

I think as John pointed out we need 2-3 witnesses to confirm a matter ..also I believe that the spiritual is far beyond carnal mentality (some time I read a scripture and some of the interpretations I have are/seem ludacrous )however according to scripture we have the spirit of God in us and are able to discern - I have a few theories re the creation but that all they are untill I find the scriptures I'm looking for.

ps BTW i have also heard that some of those so called fossi discoveries are a sham - not sure what to think - evolution and the dinasour age seem to link up according to science

[John from Kentucky]

The evolutionary scientists could well be right in how they say things came to be.

God could have used slow changes over time in creation, which is supported by some scriptures.

And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass...  Gen 1:11

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has life...  Gen 1:20

And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind...  Gen 1:24

"Let the earth bring forth....Let the waters bring forth..."  God could have used natural processes over time as His agents of creation.

[lilitalienboi16]

I think kat and renes reslonces are huge on this and johns as well. I THINK God has provided us sufficient information to understand this matter as it relates to Genesis and the creation of humanity but wothout the spirit it will trmain a source of contention and tripping stone for those not chosen. To those called and chosen who still struggle with it, God will make it clear when He wants to. I want to make it clear though, I believe to understand this matter in a place where I am at peace and see no issue with it. Tgat being said, I don't by any means claim to hold the final say on it.

Alex

[Dave in Tenn]

I'll toss this into the pot for Ian.  It's as important and relevant to the OP as it is, and not a bit more than that.

1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

 

[Kat]

John, well I think science is right as far as the actual facts bare out, but that leaves an incredible amount of holes to be filled in with their theories. So science can help in showing the evidence of what is actually found, but their assumptions in filling in those holes are way off base to me. I think we are too quick to follow scientist that take God out of being actively involved in this creation.

Gen 1:21  So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

There seems to be the idea that God kind of put things in motion and then just stood back and watched it take shape... I happen to think that God's own hand must have played an active role in bringing the original species into existence just like in the example we have of Adam and Eve.

Yes the earth brought forth the plants and the sea brought forth the sea creature, but I Don't think it did it on it's own. And this is where scientist are quite off in their explaining how life started... well I think it's very probable that God actually 'seeded' the ground and waters so it could bring forth the life from it. I mean we have planets all over the universe and we don't know of any others (and I don't believe there is) that are just bringing forth life on any of them. No this is a special work here and I think God is very involved with it all along the way. But of course this is mostly conjecture on my part.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[John from Kentucky]

Hi Kat,

You may have misunderstood me if you think I believe that scientists are correct in all things.

They don't have a clue as to the power Of God.

I believe God is behind everything.  That as Jesus said, little birds do not die without the Father's permission.  It is as Paul said when he spoke to the Athenian Assembly on Mar's Hill----"In Him (God) we live and move and have our being."

We are immersed in the invisible God.  Nothing happens without Him.  The heavens and the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him.  He is so great that He has to humble Himself to interact with our physical beings.  Psalm 113.

John

[indianabob]

Dear Kat,
I like the way you put it. Thanks for sharing your understanding.
Indiana Bob

John, well I think science is right as far as the actual facts bare out, but that leaves an incredible amount of holes to be filled in with their theories. So science can help in showing the evidence of what is actually found, but their assumptions in filling in those holes are way off base to me. I think we are too quick to follow scientist that take God out of being actively involved in this creation.

Gen 1:21  So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

There seems to be the idea that God kind of put things in motion and then just stood back and watched it take shape... I happen to think that God's own hand must have played an active role in bringing the original species into existence just like in the example we have of Adam and Eve.

Yes the earth brought forth the plants and the sea brought forth the sea creature, but I Don't think it did it on it's own. And this is where scientist are quite off in their explaining how life started... well I think it's very probable that God actually 'seeded' the ground and waters so it could bring forth the life from it. I mean we have planets all over the universe and we don't know of any others (and I don't believe there is) that are just bringing forth life on any of them. No this is a special work here and I think God is very involved with it all along the way. But of course this is mostly conjecture on my part.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[santgem]

    Even the census of old the woman is not mentioned...........

      Genealogy usually  takes into account of men...

          maybe, therefore in thousands of their years comes a woman/women......

              Is  Noah lives 960 years?
                           
                  What more for Adam and Eve.........

[Ian 155]

I think my interest was pricked once I understood that Adam is not singular but represents Mankind ( rather those called to be part of the kingdom and with the given ability to turn or change earthly minded beings)
 Till the ground -

John "we" or "Them"  are also referred to as Grass ,being here one day and into the fire the next - as is our birth, women have 2 sets of waters and its very dark in the womb until the "let there be Light" is called for "

Santgen... I found that Abel is missing in  Gen 5 begins with Seth

Science is mans logic based on that which is seen this is not necessarily correct though

[santgem]

I think my interest was pricked once I understood that Adam is not singular but represents Mankind ( rather those called to be part of the kingdom and with the given ability to turn or change earthly minded beings)
 Till the ground -

John "we" or "Them"  are also referred to as Grass ,being here one day and into the fire the next - as is our birth, women have 2 sets of waters and its very dark in the womb until the "let there be Light" is called for "

Santgen... I found that Abel is missing in  Gen 5 begins with Seth

Science is mans logic based on that which is seen this is not necessarily correct though

Hi Ian,
Greetings!


I understand what you mean and really it is confusing.....

but in my understanding all are we are descendants of the first man Adam (except for the first woman). This also supported by this scripture and many others when it comes to sinning.

         For since by [a] man came death, by [a] Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:21–22).

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” (Romans 5:12)

We read in 1 Corinthians 15:45 that Adam was “the first man.” God did not start by making a race of men.

there was only one man at the beginning—made from the dust of the earth (Genesis 2:7).


By that, by the Scripture, all are descendants of the first man Adam.  This also means that Cain’s wife was a descendant of Adam. She couldn’t have come from another race of people and must be accounted for from Adam’s descendants.

Other than that, this scripture is telling that Eve was the mother of all living, In other words, all people other than Adam are descendants of Eve—she was the first woman.

Genesis 3:20 we read, “And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.”



and maybe  Genesis is not written in chronological order

[Kat]

Hi santgem,

In studying these quotes in Genesis it has begun to appear to me that they 'all' could be figures of speech, using symbolism that will give a much higher spiritual meaning when understood. Take your example of Adam being the "first man" and also Scripture say...

Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
 
How could this be 'literally' attributed to Adam?

What has accrued to me is it seems like the Bible was written to and about "God's people," so that is what it is 'mostly' speaking of. I say mostly because there are times when others are mentioned... aliens, foreigners, strangers, etc, I believe these could have been the people living at the time Adam was brought onto the scene.

Now when speaking of Adam being the "first man," I'm wondering if that means the first that God has begun the work of salvation through or started it with him. And then you can carry that over to see how Adam was attributed as how "sin entered the world," because it was through his line that God would teach exactly what sin is. Not that he was the first to sin, but it was through him - his line that explained that it was through sin that spiritual "dead" occurred.

As for Eve being "mother of all living," thinking of that in the same way. She and Adam would produce (she would literally be giving birth, therefore mother) to the line of people that would be used to bring knowledge of God and then further on the gospel into the world. Therefore the mother of the 'living,' or 'life' in Jesus Christ.

Also this could very well explain how there was other people living in the world at the time Adam and Eve were created... because the Bible does not address them and is not speaking to or about them. Now in the NT I wondering if that isn't who the Gentiles are...

I am not trying to say that I know this is right, but I am trying to bring more into the conversation to simulate discussion to help us come to a better understanding.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

For those who don't have it, here's Genesis 2 from the Darby Translation for consideration.


Gen 2:1  And the heavens and the earth and all their host were finished.
Gen 2:2  And God had finished on the seventh day his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3  And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it, because that on it he rested from all his work which God had created in making it.

Gen 2:4  These are the histories of the heavens and the earth, when they were created, in the day that Jehovah Elohim made earth and heavens,
Gen 2:5  and every shrub of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew; for Jehovah Elohim had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground.
Gen 2:6  But a mist went up from the earth, and moistened the whole surface of the ground.
Gen 2:7  And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul.

Gen 2:8  And Jehovah Elohim planted a garden in Eden eastward, and there put Man whom he had formed.
Gen 2:9  And out of the ground Jehovah Elohim made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; and the tree of life, in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 2:10  And a river went out of Eden, to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became four main streams.
Gen 2:11  The name of the one is Pison: that is it which surrounds the whole land of Havilah, where the gold is.
Gen 2:12  And the gold of that land is good; bdellium and the onyx stone are there.
Gen 2:13  And the name of the second river is Gihon: that is it which surrounds the whole land of Cush.
Gen 2:14  And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which flows forward toward Asshur. And the fourth river, that is Euphrates.
Gen 2:15  And Jehovah Elohim took Man, and put him into the garden of Eden, to till it and to guard it.

Gen 2:16  And Jehovah Elohim commanded Man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou shalt freely eat;
Gen 2:17  but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest of it thou shalt certainly die.

Gen 2:18  And Jehovah Elohim said, It is not good that Man should be alone; I will make him a helpmate, his like.
Gen 2:19  And out of the ground Jehovah Elohim had formed every animal of the field and all fowl of the heavens, and brought them to Man, to see what he would call them; and whatever Man called each living soul, that was its name.
Gen 2:20  And Man gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the heavens, and to every beast of the field; but as for Adam, he found no helpmate, his like.

Gen 2:21  And Jehovah Elohim caused a deep sleep to fall upon Man; and he slept. And he took one of his ribs and closed up flesh in its stead.
Gen 2:22  And Jehovah Elohim built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman; and brought her to Man.
Gen 2:23  And Man said, This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man.
Gen 2:24  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Gen 2:25  And they were both naked, Man and his wife, and were not ashamed.