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Author Topic: Gen 1 v 26 Gen 2v 7 & 9 2 creations ??  (Read 14290 times)

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santgem

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Re: Gen 1 v 26 Gen 2v 7 & 9 2 creations ??
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2014, 07:01:55 AM »

Hello Kat,
Greetings!

Yes  we know that a bible is full of symbolism and a bible is a big  parables.
Again, when you see the Genesis  v.24 there already a  notion of man leaving his father and mother wherein there are no parents yet at the beginning of Adam and Eve. What i am saying is that Genesis is written not in a chronological order.

Gen 2:23  And Man said, This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man.
Gen 2:24  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Gen 2:25  And they were both naked, Man and his wife, and were not ashamed.




What we cannot deny is the fact that all of us must experience death except from "twinkling of an eye."


@ Kat
Also this could very well explain how there was other people living in the world at the time Adam and Eve were created... because the Bible does not address them and is not speaking to or about them. Now in the NT I wondering if that isn't who the Gentiles are...

As for your quote,
if ever there was other people living in the world at the time of Adam and Eve were created then they will not experience death and maybe they were still here on earth or roaming around the universe. Just joking ;)


The mere fact is that because of Adam or through Adam we experience death and all of us will experience that except "twinkling of an eye."
 If there will be another human at the time of Adam how come that they also include in experiencing death and if not the world is not enough.



@Kat
Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
 
How could this be 'literally' attributed to Adam?
 


In my understanding that this is literally attributed to Adam. When Eve sinned it was only the part of Adam that is sinned and when Adam take the sin from Eve because of Love then all the parts of Adam was sinned for He is the first Man that is created.





Sorry for my English, i am not fluent! :-\
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 07:18:59 AM by santgem »
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Kat

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Re: Gen 1 v 26 Gen 2v 7 & 9 2 creations ??
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2014, 11:11:17 AM »


Hi santgem,

http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html -----------

A parable is a story that contains in figurative or symbolic language a higher moral or spiritual truth.
v
Many people have tried to tell me that parables are to be taken literally. What they don’t realize is that they are talking about square circles. The very reason a parable is called a parable is so that we will know for sure that whatever is contained in the parable IS NOT LITERAL. Parables require spiritual understanding. Some require little (albeit some) spiritual understanding.
----------------------------------------------------

So I'm thinking if these stories in Genesis are parable and I think they are, then basically there is much more to what is being literally said. Yes these were real people that lived, but the story/parable has a much higher spiritual meaning than what is actually said.

The chronological order is not a factor, as the symbolism and the hidden meaning transcends that. How can we figure out these symbols and the meaning of the parable, well that is tricky and that is why the Bible is such a mystery. Understanding the plan of God and how He is working in this world makes all the difference in understanding parables.

Quote
Again, when you see the Genesis  v.24 there already a  notion of man leaving his father and mother wherein there are no parents yet at the beginning of Adam and Eve. What i am saying is that Genesis is written not in a chronological order.

Gen 2:23  And Man said, This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man.
Gen 2:24  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

When you understand that Adam represents all of mankind, then you can understand that this spoken about leaving father and mother and cleaving to a wife is speaking of part of God's plan for humans. So it's not literally just speaking of Adam, but he is used in the parable to get this understanding across. Then you can carrying this same way of thinking (parabolic) over to Adam being the cause of sin and death...

Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.

So if there were other people living before Adam, were they sinless? Of course they were not, all mankind is carnal from birth in this age. But if they were not taught about sin, right and wrong, then what?

Rom 5:13  for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed (recorded, accounted) when there is no law.

It is only through Adam's line that God begins to teaches right/righteous from wrong beginning with Adam and recorded through the law given to Moses. But Paul explains that even if somebody doesn't know about the law, death still reigns and comes to all men.

Rom 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

So my point was that Adam represents mankind and Paul saying that it was by the first man, Adam that, "sin entered the world, and death through sin" is not to be taken literally. Paul is speaking of the condition of mankind in this age, all have sinned, all will die. It's a parable about God's plan. God only vaguely revealed His plan of salvation in the OT, it was not until the "second man" came on the scene that a remedy for this seemingly hopeless condition of sin and death appeared, Jesus the Christ.

Rom 5:15  But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

Jesus was not literally the "second" man... it's all a parable about God's plan of salvation written throughout the Bible, hidden in plain sight.

1Co 2:4  And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
v. 5  that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
v. 6  However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
v. 7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 11:26:02 PM by Kat »
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santgem

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Re: Gen 1 v 26 Gen 2v 7 & 9 2 creations ??
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2014, 04:19:44 AM »

Hello Kat,
Greetings!


I agree most of what had you said but there are some things that bothered me.


Quote
Now when speaking of Adam being the "first man," I'm wondering if that means the first that God has begun the work of salvation through or started it with him. And then you can carry that over to see how Adam was attributed as how "sin entered the world," because it was through his line that God would teach exactly what sin is. Not that he was the first to sin, but it was through him - his line that explained that it was through sin that spiritual "dead" occurred.


In my opinion there will be no other line besides Adam. It is only through Adam and there is no other line. When you are telling the word "line", what appeared in my mind is that there will be other people besides Adam and Eve at the time of their creation.

If there will be other line or people or as you have said, 

Quote
there was other people living in the world at the time Adam and Eve were created


If the other people were outside sin, and we understand that Adam was the first to sin and all sinned of the line of Adam, then it follows that these other people are still alive today because the wages of sin is death. (Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death),They will not experience death because they are outside sin. Now the question is, where are these people now?
Am i going to fast or outside the point?


The scripture told us that,
Quote
Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper who is just right for him." Gen 2:18
the first man is not good to be alone. Meaning at the start of their creation Adam is alone and therefore Adam is the First.
other thing is that
Quote
The LORD God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and watch over it.Gen 2:15
There He placed the man whom He had formed and is not saying men.
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Ian 155

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Re: Gen 1 v 26 Gen 2v 7 & 9 2 creations ??
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2014, 06:41:40 AM »

Santgen
I don't think confusing, it is a matter of interpretation though - 1st verse in Genesis is the state of the dead or those not in Christ ( I believe ) the light comes and eradicates the darkness there is a separation - I believe the  second /3rd verse are prophecies about Christ Jesus - there are many scriptures that connect Jesus to Light.

Cain in 1 John is referred to as his father being of the Devil - Cain is not mentioned in Genealogy of Adam.

things written by Moses being a type of Christ - one can be physically born from Adams seed yet still have a different spiritual Father . As was said by Jesus about his betrayer and about the Pharisees (he is a Devil and you are of your father the devil)

So the mystery wont be solved by logic - The Law prohibits inter family sexual relations - one can say but the law only came later however the word is the same Yesterday ,today and tomorrow so no Adam must represent humanity and Seth represents something as well as Cain represent another - Esau another this is not something we don't know this is different types of people or nations and it all boils down to Many and The few ... Adam is a type of ,Moses is a type of Joshua ,Joseph etc

keep reading and asking

Ian
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santgem

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Re: Gen 1 v 26 Gen 2v 7 & 9 2 creations ??
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2014, 07:54:01 AM »

Santgen
I don't think confusing, it is a matter of interpretation though - 1st verse in Genesis is the state of the dead or those not in Christ ( I believe ) the light comes and eradicates the darkness there is a separation - I believe the  second /3rd verse are prophecies about Christ Jesus - there are many scriptures that connect Jesus to Light.

Cain in 1 John is referred to as his father being of the Devil - Cain is not mentioned in Genealogy of Adam.

things written by Moses being a type of Christ - one can be physically born from Adams seed yet still have a different spiritual Father . As was said by Jesus about his betrayer and about the Pharisees (he is a Devil and you are of your father the devil)

So the mystery wont be solved by logic - The Law prohibits inter family sexual relations - one can say but the law only came later however the word is the same Yesterday ,today and tomorrow so no Adam must represent humanity and Seth represents something as well as Cain represent another - Esau another this is not something we don't know this is different types of people or nations and it all boils down to Many and The few ... Adam is a type of ,Moses is a type of Joshua ,Joseph etc

keep reading and asking

Ian

Hi Ian,
Greetings!

Since you mentioned Seth represents something and Cain represent another, i will both answer  you and Kat.

Kats
Quote
Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
 
How could this be 'literally' attributed to Adam?

What has accrued to me is it seems like the Bible was written to and about "God's people," so that is what it is 'mostly' speaking of. I say mostly because there are times when others are mentioned... aliens, foreigners, strangers, etc, I believe these could have been the people living at the time Adam was brought onto the scene.

Now when speaking of Adam being the "first man," I'm wondering if that means the first that God has begun the work of salvation through or started it with him. And then you can carry that over to see how Adam was attributed as how "sin entered the world," because it was through his line that God would teach exactly what sin is. Not that he was the first to sin, but it was through him - his line that explained that it was through sin that spiritual "dead" occurred.


There is mentioning about God's people and this God's people is in the line of Seth. And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. Gen 4:26 This is the start whereby men is starting to call upon the name of the Lord. Also, in the line of Seth you will see that; And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.Gen 5:24.....This means that God is with them that is why they are called God's people.

now look at for Cain.


Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.Gen 4:14

And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden Gen 4:16

did you notice the Phrase "Cain went out from the presence of the Lord". Yes! Cain went out the presence of the Lord and Cain line then therefore will not be called God's children but instead be called daughters of men or sons of men.


Gen 6:2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

This sons of God saw the daughters of men are the descendants of Adam Through Seth and Cain. They were not the descendants of other people but for Adam. Seth for sons of God and Cain for daughters of men.

There will be only Adam at the start and there will be no other created beings beside Adams with the Scriptures backing.


Now for the Genesis 5. I think Ray had that explanation of Adam having two TOTUtsssssss!  ;D
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Gen 1 v 26 Gen 2v 7 & 9 2 creations ??
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2014, 09:49:14 PM »

Were the plants and animals formed after man?  Read Genesis 2 as if it's another "creation account" and you have man first, then plants, then animals, then woman which is not the "order" of Genesis 1 by a long shot.  Something is going on here that at the very least demands reconciling the two accounts--IF indeed, they are TWO SEPARATE ACCOUNTS.

Read Genesis 2, on the other hand, as two descriptions of the same account, then why the difference in order?

I want to know firstly what these words mean--especially what is translated 'create' and what is translated 'formed'.

Something deep inside of me is unable to believe that Jewish and Christian tradition finally got one right. 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 09:59:32 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Kat

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Re: Gen 1 v 26 Gen 2v 7 & 9 2 creations ??
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2014, 12:03:11 AM »


Hi Dave,

I'll give you my opinion on chapter 2. If you look at the very beginning it shows God had "finished" the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them.

Gen 2:1  Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished.
v. 2  And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
v. 3  Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

So it was "finished," but then you have God "formed man" Adam (verse 7) and "planted a garden" (verse 08)... I believe God had finished His original work of the creation of all life forms way before chapter 2, because He said it was finished. So in chapter 2 this is a special creation work beginning done after all of the that.

Gen 2:5  before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground;

In verse 5 there is a 2 fold problem, no plants and herbs were growing, all over the earth? No, I think this is speaking of this particular place where the garden would be. Also that verse gives the reason why there were no plants there, no rain and no man that knew how to farm/cultivate/till it (I believe the people before Adam were hunter/gatherers).

So God went about preparing this particular place/garden, He "caused in to rain" on a already prepared/seeded land (chapter 1), so it would grow lush. Now the place was ready and God formed a person, Adam and put him there to teach him, because I believe Adam was the source of a lot of information needed to get this new race started. This would be the beginning of God's work on the salvation of all mankind.

Well that's my take on it, it seems to fit to me anyway.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 10:57:16 AM by Kat »
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Ian 155

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Re: Gen 1 v 26 Gen 2v 7 & 9 2 creations ??
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2014, 05:29:35 AM »

Santgen
One can also presume that Abel was a type of Christ thus was a parable About the world "Killing" Jesus -so once again the formulas we try and use wont make sense re bloodline - here is what it means.... i put 2 corresponding verses down below     

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6  There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Ray is right its all one thing --- and it is explained thru the various characters in the book and there are 100's and ...Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

So whether we believe Adam represents Man in THE FLESH state (carnal) or The blood of Abel being likened to the blood of Jesus or Cain being a type of John the baptist your and my understanding would differ unless we get placed in a place of agreement so that we might walk together...

Gen 4:2  And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Gen 4:3  And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground (logic worship) an offering unto the LORD.
Gen 4:4  And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

The genealogies are not important if fact we are told to avoid arguments about genealogies, what is important is that we understand the process...I believe that would cause repentance leading up to salvation - all these characters were made by God and for our God and God would direct us in his time to see/understand his word...I must be honest most of it is above my fireplace although... it is given to the elect to see and to them, not.           

still praying and asking
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santgem

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Re: Gen 1 v 26 Gen 2v 7 & 9 2 creations ??
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2014, 09:40:50 AM »

Santgen
One can also presume that Abel was a type of Christ thus was a parable About the world "Killing" Jesus -so once again the formulas we try and use wont make sense re bloodline - here is what it means.... i put 2 corresponding verses down below     

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6  There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Ray is right its all one thing --- and it is explained thru the various characters in the book and there are 100's and ...Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

So whether we believe Adam represents Man in THE FLESH state (carnal) or The blood of Abel being likened to the blood of Jesus or Cain being a type of John the baptist your and my understanding would differ unless we get placed in a place of agreement so that we might walk together...

Gen 4:2  And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Gen 4:3  And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground (logic worship) an offering unto the LORD.
Gen 4:4  And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

The genealogies are not important if fact we are told to avoid arguments about genealogies, what is important is that we understand the process...I believe that would cause repentance leading up to salvation - all these characters were made by God and for our God and God would direct us in his time to see/understand his word...I must be honest most of it is above my fireplace although... it is given to the elect to see and to them, not.             

still praying and asking

Hi Ian,
Greetings!

In my point of view genealogies are important. People are confused regarding the sons of God. They are perceiving that these are the fallen angels who took wives for the daughters of men and populate. We all know that angel cannot marry because they don't have their tools(except you disagree on this).

Yes, maybe Abel is a type of Christ but there will be no descendants that comes from Abel because he was killed.

When Abel died, the role of Abel has taken by  Seth in such a way that Abel descendants which did not materialize was fulfilled in Seth descendants. It is in his descendants that men began  to call upon the name of the LORD. Well you can consider also Seth as Christ type.

When we look at the bible history, God forbid His people not to marry with those who were not their kind. Will also God forbid sons of God to marry daughter of men?

let us see;

Israelites Specifically Told Not to Marry the Foreigners in Their Midst.

When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.  Deu 7:1-4

On what grounds that God forbid them not to marry who were not their kind, is because They will turn away thy son from following me.Yes they will turn against God and follow their evil way.

Now, as Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, will his descendants that marries the "sons of God" will not do the same?

They have dealt treacherously against God:  for they have begotten strange children.  (Hosea 5:7)

The Israelites were told that they were a special people and to stay separate from all the other people (Exodus 33:16; Leviticus 20:24-26; Numbers 23:9; Deuteronomy 32:8; 1 Kings 8:51-53; Acts 17:26).  They were a people holy to the Lord their God, chosen to be His own possession (Deuteronomy 7:6; 14:2, 32:8, 9).(taken from other site)

In Hebrews 12:16 God calls Esau a fornicator.  Was Esau guilty of sex outside of marriage?  No!  Esau had married wives that were not of his race (Genesis 26:34) and violated the law of kind after his kind.(taken from other site)

There are a lot in the bible, Abraham and the likes.....

What i am saying is that God created good and evil, believers and not believers, man and woman, black and white, Adam and Eve, that contrast.

If there are believers in the descendant of Seth, there are also non believers in the descendant of Cain.

When the sons of God met the daughters of men the good and evil once again arise!

« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 04:22:56 AM by santgem »
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dave

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Re: Gen 1 v 26 Gen 2v 7 & 9 2 creations ??
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2014, 11:25:19 AM »


Hi Dave,

I'll give you my opinion on chapter 2. If you look at the very beginning it shows God had "finished" the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them.

Gen 2:1  Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished.
v. 2  And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
v. 3  Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

So it was "finished," but then you have God "formed man" Adam (verse 7) and "planted a garden" (verse 08)... I believe God had finished His original work of the creation of all life forms way before chapter 2, because He said it was finished. So in chapter 2 this is a special creation work beginning done after all of the that.

Gen 2:5  before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground;

In verse 5 there is a 2 fold problem, no plants and herbs were growing, all over the earth? No, I think this is speaking of this particular place where the garden would be. Also that verse gives the reason why there were no plants there, no rain and no man that knew how to farm/cultivate/till it (I believe the people before Adam were hunter/gatherers).

So God went about preparing this particular place/garden, He "caused in to rain" on a already prepared/seeded land (chapter 1), so it would grow lush. Now the place was ready and God formed a person, Adam and put him there to teach him, because I believe Adam was the source of a lot of information needed to get this new race started. This would be the beginning of God's work on the salvation of all mankind.

Well that's my take on it, it seems to fit to me anyway.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Personally I like that offering. I also believe, imo, that God created humanity, and when Paul writes 1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,
1Co 15:46  but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.
Paul is revealing to us that the formed living soul of Gen. 2:7 is where our journey, our walk, our learning begins, with this man.
Then I also have been given to accept that Genesis is literal, and yet is parable and allegory. But that is just me.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Gen 1 v 26 Gen 2v 7 & 9 2 creations ??
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2014, 12:44:51 PM »

My "faith" is that Genesis 1 is "natural" and Genesis 2 is "spiritual".  I don't want to get bogged down into "literal" and "symbolic".  My "views" on that are mine and I don't require others to share them.  I hope for the same in return. 

Concerning the genealogies, God has made all the nations of the earth of one blood.  Please don't leave GOD out of the genealogies.  There are MANY never named, and lines diverge with each generation.  That's the way genealogies work, working both backwards and forwards.  The brothers and uncles and great uncles and cousins of Abraham himself are not the ones God made His Promise to...yet even they are the recipients of the blessing when the time comes.   
« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 01:11:16 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Ian 155

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Re: Gen 1 v 26 Gen 2v 7 & 9 2 creations ??
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2014, 07:45:42 AM »

Titus 3v9 and 2nd witness 1 Tim 1:4    I did not say it ...Read it

I can see why we  should not get into this or avoid this genealogy trap ....do you though... or shall we adjust the word to suit...(perhaps when we analyse why we want to shove our points down peoples throats we may hit the jackpot ...pride of life)
We are to discern this by the spirit of truth - I agree 1st the physical then the spiritual,  as you walk thru the word all the en samples point to Christ (1st the son of Man then 2nd the son of God) .....the last shall be 1st

The process is driving out/or exposing, Lust of the flesh and of the eye and Pride - in each Physical case Eve - Adam - Cain - Esau - Joseph brothers and family - all of this physical stuff is for our good - yet it is the spirit that gives life, causes us to hate sin/world once our eyes get opened - not the physical.
Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh (logic) profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Cains Father was "all that is in the world" he has not a place in Genesis ch 5

1Jn 2:16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is NOT of the Father, but is of the world.


We walk above hu-Man intellect - we are the head not the tail - we are to walk ABOVE not Beneath.

So I believe Genealogies are "below'', as are myths re Fallen angels these are Man made interpretations - even if one swallows a Hebrew and Greek dictionary, it aint gonna get you close - its the Spirit that quickens

Is our Father God ? who is spirit - or is he the world (devil)?

ALL These People/characters in the word represent spiritual stuff it does not matter who cain married or where she was from - that union represents something spiritual - it is our man nature that wants to intellectualize it .
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Kat

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Re: Gen 1 v 26 Gen 2v 7 & 9 2 creations ??
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2014, 01:33:40 PM »


Hi Ian,

Quote
ALL These People/characters in the word represent spiritual stuff it does not matter who cain married or where she was from - that union represents something spiritual - it is our man nature that wants to intellectualize it .

You have made some good points, it is true that a spiritual meaning that comes from these physical people/characters can be of much greater significances. But I certainly think it does matter what you understand happened in the physical first, as to how you can come to a spiritual understanding. What I mean is that if your physical understanding is flawed then how could you come to a right spiritual understanding from it? Take Cain, some actually believe that he was a produce of Satan (thinking he physically seduced Eve), and so that explains his nature. But this is not true and any 'spiritual' meaning that would come from this would be wrong.

So I believe it is important to come to a correct physical understanding first and from that there comes the spiritual. It does no good to seek the spiritual first as if the physical doesn't matter, if it leads to a wrong spiritual interpretation. I think we need a good/proper understanding of the basic physical application before we can move beyond that.

For me personally, in looking to understand how the physical really did happen in Genesis was necessary, and then the spiritual opened up from that in a real big way.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 06:50:18 PM by Kat »
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dave

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Re: Gen 1 v 26 Gen 2v 7 & 9 2 creations ??
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2014, 03:45:59 PM »


Hi Ian,

Quote
ALL These People/characters in the word represent spiritual stuff it does not matter who cain married or where she was from - that union represents something spiritual - it is our man nature that wants to intellectualize it .

You have made some good points, it is true that a spiritual meaning behind these physical people/characters gives them a much greater significances. But I certainly think it does matter what you understand happened in the physical first, as to how you can come to a spiritual understanding. What I mean is that if your physical understanding is flawed then how could you come to a right spiritual understanding from it? Take Cain, some actually believe that he was a produce of Satan (thinking he physically seduced Eve), and so that explains his nature. But this is not true and any 'spiritual' meaning that would come from this would be wrong.

So I believe it is important to come to a correct physical understanding first and from that there comes the spiritual. It does no good to seek the spiritual first as if the physical doesn't matter, if it leads to a wrong spiritual interpretation. I think we need a good/proper understanding of the basic physical application before we can move beyond that.

For me personally, in looking to understand how the physical really did happen in Genesis was necessary, and then the spiritual opened up from that in a real big way.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

 :)
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Ian 155

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Re: Gen 1 v 26 Gen 2v 7 & 9 2 creations ??
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2014, 04:54:16 AM »

Thanks for that Kat I hear you on the physical and that is true, it is a kinda 'school teacher master'
I guess it is the higher calling of God that causes one to seek further or the solid food of the word,to me the physical is the basics or rather the milk.Like i said in the 1st post -having studied the beginning I am blown away at how wrong i was from an interpretation point of view -

I mean Physically  I would have  thought it blasphemy to believe that Pharaoh in the below was likened to The Father....and Joseph to Jesus and the brothers to his forgiven brethren (saints) I mean Pharaoh was always THE DEVIL to me

And so ...we can also be misguided in Physical/intellectual understanding

Gen 41:42  And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck;
Gen 41:43  And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt.
Gen 41:44  And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I am Pharaoh, and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.

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Rene

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Re: Gen 1 v 26 Gen 2v 7 & 9 2 creations ??
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2014, 10:04:10 AM »


My "faith" is that Genesis 1 is "natural" and Genesis 2 is "spiritual".  I don't want to get bogged down into "literal" and "symbolic".  My "views" on that are mine and I don't require others to share them.  I hope for the same in return. 


Dave, I've been thinking about your comments regarding Genesis 1 & 2, first the natural than the spiritual.  It certainly could explain the 2 accounts, and I do believe that applying basic bible truths as we read scripture will aid us in our understanding.  I'm definitely seeing the 2 accounts in a different light now, however, I find it necessary to understand the "symbolism" in order to see the truth. 

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. :)

René
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