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[Dave in Tenn]

Largeli, feel free to deceive if it pleases you.    

Only if you're going to "do as he does", then be prepared also to "be as He is". 

[Dave in Tenn]

An open question:

Why is there deception coming from the churches and in the churches?  Is this another of God's miserable failures?

[arion]

So does this mean it is not a sin to deceive someone as long as it's for their good?

If you were God, if you knew the beginning from the end and if you did it with absolute foreknowledge and had a heart with no sin nature then the answer would be yes.  That reminds me of a rather common argument along those lines and the scripture accurately reflects it.

I won't post it here but you'll find this argument being made in Romans chapter 9 if you wish to read about it.

I heard Ray say it before that 'God does not lie....but sometimes he uses those that do!'  But it's all for a grand purpose and will work out in the end.

[lareli]

Largeli, feel free to deceive if it pleases you.    

Only if you're going to "do as he does", then be prepared also to "be as He is".

I'm not asking permission to deceive or to kill. I'm just trying to learn more about God and His ways.

[Dave in Tenn]

God causes (directly and/or indirectly) people to believe things that are not true.  He does so for His purpose(s) and for a season...not forever.

But that is not the only tool in His box, any more than Satan is the only tool in His box.  We are His workmanship and still under construction. 

[lareli]

An open question:

Why is there deception coming from the churches and in the churches?  Is this another of God's miserable failures?

To answer your first question, the deception coming from the church is but a small piece of the overall deception that we are all born into. We are born into a world of lies and it makes no difference if one ever goes to a church or not, they will still be held accountable for the many lies they have chosen to believe.

Just because one is freed from the eternal hell and free will deception doesn't mean that person is no longer deceived by the world. All the deception is here to separate those who love truth from those who have received not a love of truth and so God sends a delusion that they should believe a lie. That 'lie' that God sends is not limited to the deception coming from the church.

To answer your second question..

"Is this another of Gods miserable failures?"

Who ever said God is a failure? Have I said that?

[Dave in Tenn]

It was an open question...not directed at you specifically.

[rick]

we are indeed born into all this deception and the only way possible for one to know this is if God removes the Vail from our eyes.
                           
It's good to see God's truth in our life but also difficult at the same time because of our preconceive ideas of who God is and what God is doing.

It's difficult to understand a perfect God from an imperfect mind guess that's why scripture says to have the mind of Christ.

[lareli]

Rick

Is it possible for our finite minds to fully comprehend an infinite God? Even with the mind of Christ?

[lareli]

It was an open question...not directed at you specifically.

My bad Dave.

[lilitalienboi16]

we are indeed born into all this deception and the only way possible for one to know this is if God removes the Vail from our eyes.
                           
It's good to see God's truth in our life but also difficult at the same time because of our preconceive ideas of who God is and what God is doing.

It's difficult to understand a perfect God from an imperfect mind guess that's why scripture says to have the mind of Christ.

Let me add this to your list Rick!

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known

[rick]

Largeli, I don’t know the answer to your question. I know Christ is the express image of God. Jesus did say that only the Father knows when He, Jesus will return indicating that Jesus does not know all that the Father knows.

I personally don’t believe that any of God’s creation will be equal in knowledge with God, how is it possible to fully comprehend the wisdom and understanding of God? Who can search the depth of God ?   

Without the mind of Christ how can one even start to comprehend God ? I don’t believe one just receives the mind of Christ either, it’s a process. As God inspires us to study and as we learn we start to put on or receive the mind of Christ. 

[rick]

Hi Alex,


1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

That scripture is referring to the relationship of knowledge between Christ and the believers but not of God the Father.

If I’m allowed by God to understand all the truths here at B.T. , that would be something else for me as I remember where I come from although I’m still at the bottom and deem myself the least of all God’s creation.

I’m waiting for my redemption to come when I will be perfect even as God is perfect an sin becomes a thing of the past. 

[John from Kentucky]

Hi Alex,


1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

That scripture is referring to the relationship of knowledge between Christ and the believers but not of God the Father.

If I’m allowed by God to understand all the truths here at B.T. , that would be something else for me as I remember where I come from although I’m still at the bottom and deem myself the least of all God’s creation.

I’m waiting for my redemption to come when I will be perfect even as God is perfect an sin becomes a thing of the past. 

I and Father are one.  John 10:30  (Note, Jesus refers to Himself first.)

As a human, Jesus did not possess all knowledge.  But after His resurrection, Jesus said He had all power in heaven and earth.

[Kat]

John, what knowledge do you think Christ Jesus did not have? I do not even understand that way of thinking.

Col 2:9  For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

He was God even while He was in the flesh on earth and certainly retained the knowledge of God... He knew He was the great I AM (John 8:58).

John 14:6  Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

He declared He was "the truth"... what knowledge is lacking in The Truth?

Mat 11:27  All things have been delivered to Me by My Father...

Christ made this statement well before His crucifixion, He always retained His knowledge and His power in the flesh, He did work many miracles. Even as a 12 year old boy He stunned the teachers in the Temple with His knowledge (Luke 2). He never lost His memory and retained His mind as God. But after His resurrection He did state "all authority" was given Him.

Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

He obtained all authority by His sacrifice "the blood of sprinkling" to become the Mediator and High Priest.

Heb 8:6  But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant,

Heb 12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Heb 2:17  Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
v. 18 18  For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[santgem]

John, what knowledge do you think Christ Jesus did not have? I do not even understand that way of thinking.

Col 2:9  For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

He was God even while He was in the flesh on earth and certainly retained the knowledge of God... He knew He was the great I AM (John 8:58).

John 14:6  Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

He declared He was "the truth"... what knowledge is lacking in The Truth?

Mat 11:27  All things have been delivered to Me by My Father...

Christ made this statement well before His crucifixion, He always retained His knowledge and His power in the flesh, He did work many miracles and even as a 12 year old boy He stunned the teachers in the Temple with His knowledge (Luke 2). But after His resurrection He did state "all authority" was given Him.

Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

He obtained all authority by His sacrifice "the blood of sprinkling" to become the Mediator and High Priest.

Heb 8:6  But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant,

Heb 12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Heb 2:17  Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
v. 18 18  For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi kat,
Greetings!

Can you please enlighten us more for the benefit of us who know little, on this verse that not all the Son knows.

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. Mat 24:36

[Kat]

Hi santgem,

That Scripture is speaking of the future plan of God, certainly Christ knows the plan of God for this world. This whole creation is of the Father's design and His determination, Christ does not set the dates of things, the Father does.

John 8:28  Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.

Acts 1:7  And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.

This should clearly prove one thing, that Christ is not the Father. But to equate His not knowing that date to not having 'all' knowledge is really absurd. I believe wanting to know this date is a carnal desire, and Christ would have known that people would want to know this of Him, He had no need to know it's exact timing, nor reveal it, therefore He would not lie when they ask Him of it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[dave]

Yes Kat.

[Rene]

As a human, Jesus did not possess all knowledge. But after His resurrection, Jesus said He had all power in heaven and earth.

John, what knowledge do you think Christ Jesus did not have? I do not even understand that way of thinking.

Kat

In harmony with what Kathy is saying, Jesus Christ is the Creator of the heavens and the earth, and the scriptures bare out that He knew where He came from and where was going back to when He was in the flesh. 

John 8:14 – “Jesus answered, “Even if I do bear witness about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going, but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.” (ESV)

John 13:3 – “Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going back to God"   (ESV)


Here is a comment Ray made at his last bible study in March of 2011.  He was replying to comments about Jesus "emptying" himself to come in the flesh. (Rays comments in blue)

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.0.html

March 2011 Bible study – Is Jesus God

"See I don’t think He emptied Himself of everything that was all knowledge, everything. I don’t think so. [Comment: Maybe He emptied Himself of something.] Yes He did, of course He did. He emptied Himself of some prior glory that He had."

[rick]

This thread is blowing me away, Im starting to see things I had not understood before. I know Jesus is a created being but at the same time He is also God to me because everything that was made was made by Jesus.

I always thought Jesus was inferior to God the Father because God the Father always existed whereas Christ was created.

I’m starting to see that the entire bible is about Jesus, is it right to say that it was Jesus who spoke to Moses from the burning bush? Or was it a messenger sent from God who was speaking  ? Was it Jesus who said   ( I am that I am ) or was it a messenger from God ? 

Would it be right to say that God the Father and Jesus are totally equal in knowledge and power ?