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[theophilus]

John 2:16-17 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

16 He told those who were selling the doves, “Take these things out of here! Stop making my FATHER'S HOUSE a MARKETPLACE!” 17 His disciples remembered that it was written, “ZEAL for your HOUSE will CONSUME ME.”

1 Corinthians 6:19-20

Or do you not know that your body is a temple [my Father's house] of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you were bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body [temple/Father's house].

[lareli]

Riddles I agree that they are fooled and deceived. I think maybe that's why I don't feel threatened or offended by them.. I know they blaspheme God with their doctrine but it's easy to not be offended by their doctrine once one understands that they're not aware of what they're doing. I think some opinions around here are that the church actually knows that they're blaspheming and that they're purposely and knowingly leading the flock astray.. I don't see it that way.

On another note.. Does anyone think that a church's position on war and violence has anything to do with it being the great false church? We are blessed to have BT but throughout the centuries there wasn't a BT for believers. But they're has always been the doctrine of non violence plain as day in the sermon on the mount. Just War doctrine made it possible for churches/christians to support the military and war. It made a loophole to obeying Christ's commands on non violence. Hence the 'why do you call me Lord but don't do what I say?'

[lareli]

Heres an excerpt from one of Rays audios..

I knew a lovely man when I was in Worldwide.  He came down and gave some Bible studies for us and I really did love the man.  His name was Ray too.  But he made the comment once… now he understood about universal reconciliation, he just did not get the spirit.  He said, ‘we can be thankful we live in a nation and in a time where we are not persecuted.’  And he said, ‘I’ve never been persecuted.’  Guess what?  He was not living completely Godly in Christ Jesus, that’s why. 
When you always do what’s right, you will be persecuted and probably by some of your closes friends.  Maybe your wife or husband, your mother or father, your children or neighbors or working associates.  Not the least of which is your own brethren in the church will persecute you, if you always do everything that is right. 

They say - Oh we’re going to make little ribbons and hang them on the trees, to say bless our soldiers, may they kill many Arabs today. 
You say - well I don’t want to do that.
Them - what?
You - I don’t think it’s right that we do that.
Them - well what’s with you?  You’re not patriotic?  You don’t believe in killing?
You - no.
If you don’t think you will be persecuted, I’ll tell you that you will be persecuted. 

Throughout history people have "come out of her" because they recognized the hypocrisy of the church's support of a state institution and war... These people may never have known about hell or free will being blasphemous but they did indeed come out of the church's because they could see that the church taught opposite what Christ taught when it came to violence.

[Dennis Vogel]

About the churches:

Php 1:18  What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

[indianabob]

Thank you Dennis,
Understanding comes only with long experience and testing and the gift of a mature mind based upon practice and appreciation of the fact that God works with all manner of people and circumstances His work to perform.


2Pe 3:15  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18  But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

[Dennis Vogel]

Is Jer 50:6 talking about the "Church?"

Jer 50:6  My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

[acomplishedartis]

Personally I would rather prefer social interaction and face to face interaction with non-religious fine individuals

than with totally deceived church rats.


(because of many reasons)...

[Riddles]

Largeli - I wish I'd copy-pasted what a Messianic Jew once said to me when he walked me through the identity of "the wicked" because it made sense, brought peace and I haven't found if L. Ray wrote about it. 

The default "my country, right or wrong" pro-war stance speaks to spiritual cowardice (it's only OK in U.S. to be anti war if you have no political, media or religious voice) on the part of pastors and congregants.  Because the chief concern of these churches made with hands, it appears, is to perpetuate themselves, the preachers HAVE to tickle ears and not alienate their public - scriptures be damned.  These churches get government tax exemptions that they just CAN'T turn down, so basically every church is in the government's pocket, spiritually (Rev. 17:2).  These pastors need money from churchgoers like TV studios need ratings.  The real teachings of Jesus weren't popular in His time on earth, and they aren't very popular now.  Goliath is this world's sociopolitical structure. 

I was listening to a podcast from a guy who happens to be atheist.  He pointed out that there are probably far more people in the world who adopt sociopathic traits than are textbook sociopaths.  He said that a guy who sells a used recreational vehicle off of his lot for $16,000 (though it's worth $4,000) to an elderly couple, goes home and thinks of himself as a great salesman, not as a schmuck.  I think this relates to your comment.  If we don't judge ourselves, then we do whatever we want and then invent excuses in order to live with ourselves. So it is with wolves in the visible church. 

But, largeli, I think that there were individuals and groups of people in the last almost 2,000 years that put 2 and 2 together - but outside of scripture the story and beliefs of those persecuted aren't widely understood.  So L. Ray isn't the first to notice and write about the scriptural truths that bring us here.

Theophilus - Back when I was still checking out local churches, I noticed that some of them sold things in the lobby area (not in the pews, that would be gauche!).  One church has an espresso and pastry cart.  On your first visit to their church service, you got a free coffee of your choice.  This church of course taught all sorts of false doctrines and de-emphasized scripture reading.  The people were super nice, but it felt like a love bombing tactic to make me feel understood and at home.  At least Esau was actually starving (Gen 25).   Imagine giving up your birthright for a mocha latte.   

[theophilus]

Theophilus - Back when I was still checking out local churches, I noticed that some of them sold things in the lobby area.  One church has an espresso and pastry cart.  On your first visit to their church service, you got a free coffee of your choice.  This church of course taught all sorts of false doctrines and de-emphasized scripture reading.  At least Esau was starving (Gen 25).   Imagine giving up your birthright for a mocha latte.   

A mocha latte is much less than a stew! No Winchell donuts???

But seriously, we are to be inmensly grateful for having been revealed the truth about these things. Thank the Lord God that it pleased Him to do it. 

[Joel]

It's obvious that the physical Church of the old covenant is no longer in existence, having been destroyed around 70 A.D.
And that the Church that Jesus Christ is building has never had the gates of hell to prevail against it.
There are however many similarities when comparing the two, such as the evil, and corruption, and false idols that permeate both.
God has never left himself without a witness that has stayed true to him throughout the many hundreds of years, and only God knows for sure who they are.

Joel

[greenef]

Hi All:
In the transcript from Ray's "How we got the Bible". I question Ray's acount of the day Stephen was stoned. Below is an excerpt from that transcript.

"Well on that very day they stoned Stephen (Acts 7)."

I have read most of Ray's work and I do believe he was the most knowledgeable writer that I have ever known. But I do believe Ray may have miss spoke here. I do believe Stephen's stoning came at a much later date.

Let me know what you think.

Frank

[Dennis Vogel]

Hi All:
In the transcript from Ray's "How we got the Bible". I question Ray's acount of the day Stephen was stoned. Below is an excerpt from that transcript.

"Well on that very day they stoned Stephen (Acts 7)."

I have read most of Ray's work and I do believe he was the most knowledgeable writer that I have ever known. But I do believe Ray may have miss spoke here. I do believe Stephen's stoning came at a much later date.

Let me know what you think.

Frank

Ray never said his writings were perfect. But how would this affect anything? How would this change your beliefs?

[Dennis Vogel]

If you suspect you are chosen in this life then this describes you:

1Co 1:26  For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
 
1Co 1:27  But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1Co 1:28  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

1Co 1:29  That no flesh should glory in his presence.

If anything church people are better than we are until we are converted and endured more than a few trials.

Joh 12:40  He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

[Kat]

Hi Frank,

Well I can't say what Ray was implying when he said "that very day," he had mentioned Pentecost though. But this was at a conference where he was just speaking freely, if it had been a written article he probably would have been more precise. But actually I don't think that Stephen martyr was very long after Pentecost. Here is a timeline on those events surrounding it.

Crucifixion - Resurrection - and Ascension of Jesus Christ, 30-31CE
Pentecost, falls on the tenth day after Ascension, 30-31CE
Stephen was stoned to death by an infuriated mob, approved by Saul of Tarsus in Jerusalem in 30/32CE
Conversion of Saul to Paul the Apostle, it is normally dated by researchers from 32 C.E. (most likely) and all the way to 36 C.E.

As you can see the date of Stephen's death is not stated in Scripture, but it can be deduced from the book of Acts that it was probably soon after Pentecost. Because it was sometime 'before' Paul conversion. Stephen was appointed as one of the deacons, which must have taken place fairly soon after Pentecost, since there are thousands of followers of Jesus after the two sermons Acts 2 and 3. There was probably only a couple of years from Pentecost till Paul's conversion and sometime during that period was when Stephen was killed.

Anyway Ray was speaking of the prophecy that's in Joel 2 about the sun would be darkened and the moon turned to blood... and it certainly was very soon after Christ started His church at Pentecost that the Apostasy set in, when Stephen was martyred in a brutal/bloody way.

Just wanted to give you my take on this, hope it made sense 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[santgem]

                              God blinded some and the Devil blinds too......

John 12:40  He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

2Co 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[Riddles]

Santgem, I was just reading where L. Ray says that 2 Cor. 4:3 refers to God not Satan. 

[santgem]

Santgem, I was just reading where L. Ray says that 2 Cor. 4:3 refers to God not Satan.

Hi  Riddles,
Greetings!


2007 Nashville Conference:

Somebody ask me if "the god of this world" could possibly be referring to God rather than Satan. I considered it a long time ago, because Satan deceives and God blinds. God blinded them, Satan deceived. 

2Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine upon them.

Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God. NLT


Maybe it will be a big help if you could explain it further!

[Riddles]

Right Santgem.  I think everyone at this forum has read that.  L. Ray wrote that that passage is talking about God; that it's God who has the power to blind us or not.

[Kat]

2007 Nashville Conference:

Somebody ask me if "the god of this world" could possibly be referring to God rather than Satan. I considered it a long time ago, because Satan deceives and God blinds. God blinded them, Satan deceived. 

2Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine upon them.

Riddles, in that quote from the conference Ray said he "considered it," not that he changed his mind and then saw that Scripture another way. This is what he had taught on this previously, in an excerpt from the Lake of Fire article no. 9 'The Lucifer Hoax and the Mission of Satan.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ----------------------------------------------------

Let’s notice a few things overlooked by most Sunday school teachers (and most of the world’s greatest theologians as well). Ready? Are you sure? Okay, here goes: ALL THE NATIONS OF THE ENTIRE WORLD BELONG TO SATAN THE DEVIL!!! Heaven and Earth are God’s possessions, however, God has delegated the nations to Satan. Satan could not offer all these kingdoms of the world to Jesus if he did not possess them to offer them in the first place. They are Satan’s ignorant kingdoms:

"In whom the god [SATAN] of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, Who is the Image of God, should shine unto them" (II Cor. 4:4).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Rene]

2007 Nashville Conference:

Somebody ask me if "the god of this world" could possibly be referring to God rather than Satan. I considered it a long time ago, because Satan deceives and God blinds. God blinded them, Satan deceived. 

2Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine upon them.

I remember when Ray made that comment and it certainly gave me pause for thought.  Although every bible translation I could fine does use a lower case "g" for god, I still wonder about the true meaning. 

I have found scriptures that refer to satan as a "ruler of this world" (John 12:31) and as a "prince" of this age" (Eph 2:2), but I could not find another scripture referring to satan as a "god." 

I have to admit, it is a repulsive thought to feel confused about whether a scripture is talking about Almighty God or satan. Yikes!

René