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[Riddles]

I can't yet find the quote from L. Ray that I refer to.  I will post it when I do.

[Dave in Tenn]

Back to the OP:

Mar 4:14  The sower sows the word:
Mar 4:15  and these are they by the wayside where the word is sown, and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.
Mar 4:16  And these are they in like manner who are sown upon the rocky places, who when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy,
Mar 4:17  and they have no root in themselves, but are for a time: then, tribulation arising, or persecution on account of the word, immediately they are offended.
Mar 4:18  And others are they who are sown among the thorns: these are they who have heard the word,
Mar 4:19  and the cares of life, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things, entering in, choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

Where are those people?  Some of them quit going to church and just became your basic booger-heads.  You know some, and so do I.  Most of the rest are still there, however.  And worse, many are in the pulpits.

He said it...so shall it be. 

[HoneyLamb56]

This question has probably been asked before (I'm still a babe) but I would like to see your comments.  If one has stopped going to church (or has come out of the church), how does this person's spouse or children hear Christ being preached if they do not attend "the church"?  Or one who never has attended church and does not listen to religious TV etc.? How does God draw them? or are they to be spiritually blinded until they physically die?

Diane

[Kat]

Hi friendofJC,

Actually the church of Christendom is not God's church.

http://bible-truths.com/email15.htm --------------------

Jesus Christ said, "I will BUILD My church..." (Matt. 16:18). James understood that there was a church to be built among the Gentiles, "After this I will return and will BUILD again the tabernacle of David..."   (Acts 15:15-16). Paul instructs us further in this building process of the church,

"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another builds thereon. But let every man TAKE HEED HOW HE BUILDS thereupon" (I Cor. 3:10).

This most stern warning is given to us because Paul is not speaking of properly laying or building with bricks and mortar, but with the LIVES of precious people, "...YE ARE God's building" (Verse 9)! 

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this TEMPLE, and in three days I will raise it up. [how much MONEY do you suppose that would take, Pastor?] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and will you rear it up in three days?  But He spake of the TEMPLE OF HIS BODY" (John 2:19-21).

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a BUILDING of God, an house NOT MADE WITH HANDS [how much money you reckon a fine building like this would cost, Pastor?]..." (II Cor. 5:1).

"Know you not that YOU ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD, and that the Spirit of God dwells IN YOU?" (I Cor. 3:16).

That's because,

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, DWELLS NOT IN TEMPLES MADE WITH HANDS" (Acts 17:24).

No, God does not "dwell" in temples and buildings made with hands, but SATAN "DWELLS" in carnal churches made with hands (Rev. 2:13)!

The reason the church today is bankrupt is because they have FAR TOO MUCH MONEY and FAR TOO LITTLE SPIRIT!
----------------------------------------------------------

HoneyLamb, God can draw people to Him in many ways, there are all kinds of causes, most unseen and we are totally unaware of. Usually it is initially through a church that they hear the basic gospel and learn the Bible stories. I think there are some people that do not attend a church and read the Bible on their on or just with family. But a lot of people will not even be drawn to God in this age at all.

The church is a carnal gathering of people seeking religious socialization. Those in the church hardly hear the truth, they are blind leaders of the blind.

Mat 15:14  Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."

I do not think it is necessary to make sure your family gets churched. If you have learned the truth about the church it's hard to understand that you would desire them to be a part of that. A person that has their eyes opened would be a far better teacher for their family than any church would be. But if a family member wants to go with other family members or friends I wouldn't stop them either.

Now of course this is my personal stance and others can have their own opinion.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[indianabob]

Dear friend Diane,

God has provided a better teacher for your spouse and children in the person of you, one who's mind has been opened.

One who has truly been called, even though a babe in Christ in their own mind, is better able to present the truth in a loving sincere manner than almost any seminary graduate with all their biases, myths and fairy tales.
You have the scripture and can prepare very simple bible lessons if the family is willing. Please be sure that they are willing, don't force.... Plus you have the spirit of Christ, the counselor, the Paraclete at your side to give you the thoughts that will matter.

Also please do not be concerned about having to "get them convicted" in a hurry or before it is too late. With a loving God it is never too late and even so God can open their mind instantly, when God is ready to do it and not before.

Please be patient with yourself and your family and friends and simply do your best with God's spirit in your heart to be a better living example. Your family will see the improvement and will learn to trust your counsel in due time.

I have four adult children who love their Mom and Me and show it regularly. They also love one another and yet they all are different in their core beliefs. None of them are church members.

Regards, Indiana Bob

This question has probably been asked before (I'm still a babe) but I would like to see your comments.  If one has stopped going to church (or has come out of the church), how does this person's spouse or children hear Christ being preached if they do not attend "the church"?  Or one who never has attended church and does not listen to religious TV etc.? How does God draw them? or are they to be spiritually blinded until they physically die?

Diane

[Riddles]

Kat said

I do not think it is necessary to make sure your family gets churched. If you have learned the truth about the church it's hard to understand that you would desire them to be a part of that. A person that has their eyes opened would be a far better teacher for their family than any church would be. But if a family member wants to go with other family members or friends I wouldn't stop them either.

I completely agree.



Indianabob said

God has provided a better teacher for your spouse and children in the person of you, one who's mind has been opened.

One who has truly been called, even though a babe in Christ in their own mind, is better able to present the truth in a loving sincere manner than almost any seminary graduate with all their biases, myths and fairy tales.


So well said. 

As for me, Diane - I had a bible with Jesus' words in red since I can remember, but I only got curious enough to read the rest of it when a friend who I really respect just out of nowhere one day said to me "I'm reading the bible to my [infant] daughter."  She said no more about it.  This was enough for met to get curious about the bible, realizing that I hadn't the faintest idea what it said. Even little children can feel it when someone is trying to "sell" an idea to them, Diane, and people naturally resist.  But that is why the gospel is good news - accepting and knowing that God reconciles all people to Himself IS the good news which changes YOU so that you (and we) don't have to strive to change other people. 

Much of the fervor to "win souls" I think, stems from an anxiety about eternal punishment which does not exist.

I'm not sure how you ought to do things, Diane, but I look back at my friend's casual mentioning of reading the bible as planting a seed in me. She didn't make a show of being at peace - she just was. She gave me nothing to reject or resist, so of course I thought reading the bible was my own idea! 

[indianabob]

Friend Riddles,

Very well put. Reminds me of some of my history.
Thanks, Indiana Bob

[Ian 155]

Rev 3:9  Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a ..

[Rene]

How does God draw them? or are they to be spiritually blinded until they physically die?

Hi Diane,

If it is God's plan that someone is going to be given "spiritual sight" in this age, He does it by changing their hearts.  It is God Who will put the desire in their hearts to know the truth, and then they will seek Him, and He will open their eyes.  If a family member is going to be given "spiritual sight", God may use you as an instrument in this process or He may use another source. 

No need to worry whether your family goes to church or not.  Besides, the vast majority of people who are "in the church" in this age, will remain spiritually blind.  If God is choosing one of your family members to be spiritually enlightened, it will not fail, no matter what you do.

René

[lareli]

Question.. Do you guys listen to christian music? Klove?

[John from Kentucky]

Question.. Do you guys listen to christian music? Klove?

Never.  Ever.

I never do anything Christian.  I do not participate in our family prayers at Thanksgiving or other Holidays.  I stay away from all things religious.

I am a stranger in a strange land.  A sojourner on the earth.  A wanderer in the spiritual wilderness.  And I do not want it any other way.

The reason?  I am not a Christian.  Neither is Jesus.

[lareli]

John are you being sarcastic or serious?

[John from Kentucky]

John are you being sarcastic or serious?

If you are using sarcastic or serious as adjectives, I do not believe they are comparative.

Grammar aside, my post was dead on serious.

I do not engage in any type of public prayer per Jesus' commands.  I do not do any type of religious thing in public, nor do I fellowship with religious people.

Away with all that nonsense.  I walk with Jesus.  Neither of us are Christians, thus we do not do Christian things.

I despise and reject the great false church in all its forms and manifestations.  And the world systems upon which she rides.

[lareli]

When you said you don't participate in family prayers at thanksgiving, does that mean you stay in the other room till their done? Or do you join hands but keep your eyes open? How does your family react?

I assume you also wouldn't stand at a ball game during the national anthem?

[John from Kentucky]

When you said you don't participate in family prayers at thanksgiving, does that mean you stay in the other room till their done? Or do you join hands but keep your eyes open? How does your family react?

I assume you also wouldn't stand at a ball game during the national anthem?

    Duh!  I don't go into another room.  My brothers-in-law would then get the best of the food, which it is my birthright, being the senior family member since my father is dead.  Also, I'm not ashamed of following scripture.

I have no problem with standing.  I don't really want to make a scene or bring attention to myself.  But, I don't hold hands (with a brother-in-law, yuck), bow my head, or participate in the prayer.

My family knows my views.  I don't speak about Scriptures or God's ways, unless someone asks me a direct question, then they get a direct answer.  They never try to change me since they know my strong will and personality.

Thanksgiving Day is my favorite holiday of the year.  I find it very family oriented, which I love.

[lareli]

Lol.. I hear you John.

[lareli]

Ray said that he was an ambassador for Christ and an ambassador is not allowed to vote in a host nation. He wrote this in 2 different emails that I've read so far.

He also wrote, as I quoted on page 2 of this thread, that it's not right to support the troops, or to be patriotic.


I can count on one hand the number of times that I've even heard the word 'hell' in the church that I went to for 25 years. I'm not convinced that half the people there really believe it to be honest. BUT.. Loyalty to your leaders is big. Voting is your duty as a good responsible christian. So to me, the great false church is not only comprised of hell and free will doctrine but loyalty to the governments of man. Every church structure with its head pastor or denominational president or whatever.. They're all modeled after mans government just like a pyramid. All the power and authority condensed down to a select few or one and all the subjects underneath holding it up with their tithe dollars. Every church is married to the government but also claim to be married to Christ.. As if she can have two masters.

These are just my observations, please critique.

[indianabob]

Friend Largeli,

Military service and home defense are often very touchy subjects for discussion within a Christian forum. We aren't exactly Christians the way most people would define the term from their natural perspective of having learned the dogma or creed of a particular denomination.

Please allow me to partially separate home defense or self defense from either voluntary or conscripted military service.

Start with a basic precept of home defense or defense of ones own family in ones owned or rented house. Suppose that a thief breaks into your home and attacks your wife or child. Would you use whatever force necessary to protect that family member? I think that most parents would automatically do their best to stop the attack no matter how much force it took and with no serious consideration of what injury the attacker might suffer. If anyone breaks into my home and attacks my wife the chances are that one of us is going to suffer great bodily harm and I do not plan for it to be me or my wife. I think that God understands that about me and I do not plan to change myself in that regard. Perhaps God will protect me from having to ever make that decision, I hope so.

On the other hand, if I come home and find a man running from my home and upon entering find my wife injured, bleeding, clothes torn etc. what will I do?
First of course I will see to her needs and call for help. Then I will probably think to call the police to come and protect us from further harm from this same individual. While waiting I may secure a weapon of some sort and prepare to defend ourselves until the police arrive.

All of those choices are natural, normal actions and not prohibited in scripture as far as I can determine.

However, if I become extremely angry and begin to think to seek revenge for the attack upon my family member, that is when I need to fall to my knees and pray for divine guidance, BECAUSE the scripture tells us that vengeance belongs to God alone; God will repay.

Now as I pray for guidance where is my trust? Is my trust in God or in my own strength and my own (sovereign ?) choices as to how to respond?
This is an area where a true believer has to plan for the future and seek truth from scripture and through meditation and prayer. We need to count the cost of our future actions and develop an attitude of careful obedience to what God has shown us is the correct path to follow.

Of course we all may fail to carry out our prayerful plan when the fight or flight adrenalin is pumping through our veins. We may act in anger and have a lot to repent of before God after the incident is over and done, but we cannot in good conscience plan for retribution against another of God's children. Living that way will only eat away at our own spirit.

Now then, how differently should we handle military service?

Should any "true" follower of the Lord Jesus volunteer to serve in their own nation's organized army as a trained killer of the government designated enemies of that nation.
Where does one draw the line? Is there a place for a "bright" line of difference between defense of ones home and family and the planned and premeditated killing of another human being that the President or military authority orders the soldier to kill, by whatever means?

What is a citizens obligation in this situation? What is the obligation of a visitor to the Nation, a citizen of another Nation such as the Kingdom of God, a person who happens to be a law abiding ambassador of what may be seen as a superior sovereign government who's seat is in the heaven of God.

There is a lot to consider in this situation and God knows how difficult our choices are, but in the final analysis God must show us what we must do and the answer may be different for each person.

Pray and seek God's mind and be content to wait until the answer for you becomes evident in your own heart.

Warm regards, Indiana Bob

[jeetkunejimi]

Rev 18:4.