In the day you eat of it, you will certainly die

[Riddles]

I was reading some e mailed questions that L. Ray answered.  I posted it here below.  The person asked what God is talking about in Gen 2:17 with "on the day you eat of it you shall surely die."  Christian churches teach (that I know about) teach that here Adam died spiritually that literal day, but could not perceive it.  But here, "day" means 1,000 years and sure enough Adam died at 930 years. God was talking about physical death.


A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by      Psalm 90:4

With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day      2 Peter 3:8



Hi Ray,

You said that Adam and Eve were carnal minded before they ate the forbidden fruit. Does that mean they were spiritually dead before they ate?

If so, what was God taking about when he said "on the day you eat you will surely die?"

[Ray Replies]

God treated Adam and Eve in the same way that the Law of Moses treated Israel. There were numerous laws given to Israel, and the breaking of some of them involved the penalty of death. Now as long as no one actually committed the act that was illegal, no penalty was enacted.  One could look at another man's pretty wife, just as long as he didn't touch her or commit physical adultery with her.

God treated Eve the same way. As long as she kept her lust of the flesh and lust of the eyes and pride of life TO HERSELF, God did not punish her. But once she committed an actual act of law-breaking (in this case disobey the law that God had enacted regarding eating the forbidden fruit), then the PENALTY CAME IN TO PLAY.

Today, under the New Covenant, we are guilty for merely THINKING a sinful thought. Now it is a sin to just "look upon a woman to lust after her" even if one doesn't ACTUALLY commit adultery with her. It is a thing of the SPIRIT, and not just the letter.

God be with you,

Ray

[lilitalienboi16]

I was reading some e mailed questions that L. Ray answered.  I posted it here below.  The person asked what God is talking about in Gen 2:17 with "on the day you eat of it you shall surely die."  Christian churches teach (that I know about) teach that here Adam died spiritually that literal day, but could not perceive it.  But here, "day" means 1,000 years and sure enough Adam died at 930 years. God was talking about physical death.


A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by      Psalm 90:4

With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day      2 Peter 3:8



Hi Ray,

You said that Adam and Eve were carnal minded before they ate the forbidden fruit. Does that mean they were spiritually dead before they ate?

If so, what was God taking about when he said "on the day you eat you will surely die?"

[Ray Replies]

God treated Adam and Eve in the same way that the Law of Moses treated Israel. There were numerous laws given to Israel, and the breaking of some of them involved the penalty of death. Now as long as no one actually committed the act that was illegal, no penalty was enacted.  One could look at another man's pretty wife, just as long as he didn't touch her or commit physical adultery with her.

God treated Eve the same way. As long as she kept her lust of the flesh and lust of the eyes and pride of life TO HERSELF, God did not punish her. But once she committed an actual act of law-breaking (in this case disobey the law that God had enacted regarding eating the forbidden fruit), then the PENALTY CAME IN TO PLAY.

Today, under the New Covenant, we are guilty for merely THINKING a sinful thought. Now it is a sin to just "look upon a woman to lust after her" even if one doesn't ACTUALLY commit adultery with her. It is a thing of the SPIRIT, and not just the letter.

God be with you,

Ray

A 1000 years does not equal 930 years in the same way that the first day and the second day and the third day etc...--ad nasueum--of creation were not literal 24 hour days.

My humble opinion on the matter.

[Riddles]

I think you misunderstand my post lilitalienboi16.

[lilitalienboi16]

I think you misunderstand my post lilitalienboi16.

No I understood it but two wrongs don't make a right. I don't agree that "day" meant a thousand years, literally.

I had some comment about Genesis 2:17 that I did want to make but since I'm not sure of it i'll keep it to myself

[Riddles]

No, I'm talking about Genesis 2:17. We don't need to discuss the creation days here.  "In the day you eat of it [the fruit] you will surely die".  Well Adam didn't die in "that day" from our perspective.  So what did God mean?  If a pastor has any teaching at all about this scripture, it's that Adam then died spiritually after eating the fruit, which is why he apparently did not die at all.  Not then.  That is the only solution to this problem of "in that day you will surely die", or is it?

We find out later that "day" for means 1,000 years.  So yes, Adam died "in that day" - within that thousand years.  If he'd lived to be 1,500 years old, it would not be a true prophecy.  But he lived to be 930 and it is a true prophecy.  Maybe the first one in the bible, and God gave us the answer for free.  I say take it and run!

A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by      Psalm 90:4

With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day      2 Peter 3:8

I saw L. Ray's response and he forgot to answer that part, that's all.

[Farlsborough]

Hmm, that seems unconvincing Riddles. I do understand where you're coming from, but I just don't think that we can take those verses from Psalms and 2 Peter and use them to mean that God literally meant 1000 years when he said "day". This feels like the sort of mechanistic literalism of the folk who try to shoehorn, redefine, stretch etc. to argue for young earth creation. Or in fact, more like those who try to mathematise the various obscure OT prophecies and come up with the date for Armageddon.

I don't mean to be disparaging and you could well be right! But a day is "like" a thousand years. It's a simile. God doesn't experience time as we do, He is outside of/in control of time. Does this mean that every time a day is mentioned we are to think "right - that means 1000 years"? Christ was in Hades for 3 days - is there something special we need to know about 3000 years?

My (very limited) understanding is that 1000 is used in scripture to mean "lots and lots", in the same way that we still do. "If I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times!"

I'm not pretending to have the answers, I have no idea what this passage means. But I suspect it will have some spiritual dimension. Anyway, didn't Ray think that man was created mortal in the Garden anyway? And that we only put on immortality later in God's plan? So how is living to 930 years some kind of punishment - how long would he have lived had he not eaten the fruit? One thousand and one? Two thousand? Something much bigger than simply capping Adam's years at 1000 seems to be in play here, given that the rest of it is so symbolic.

[Riddles]

Farlsborough, I don't believe in the young earth theory. My take might seem literal if we never could get a good handle on Adam's age at death, but we can, which fits with the other clues.  I see it as God dropping hints for us, not as "1 year always = 1,000 years" because the phrasing "as" makes it a similie. 

Though it's a similie, I think we're supposed to pick up on it because we know how long Adam lived - a bit short of a thousand years, or a "day".  We're not supposed to plug in that formula every time we see those numbers because it's a similie, but...coincidence?  Stretch?  Declaring that Adam died a spiritual death (as many at the pulpit do according to YouTube sermons available online material from various denomination) is I think, an assumption because it presupposes that Adam was created with an immortal soul.  Why create Adam perfect with an immortal soul, then he sins?  That sound like God changing His mind. Numbers 23:19 His creation is out of His control and He makes mistakes!  We know He doesn't. 

Why even use the word "day" if it's superfluous?  We get around this conundrum if the death in Gen 2 is physical, within 1,000 years specifically.  That's what this is about - I think we're supposed to find out the real nature of the death, which is hid from us at first.

If I'm not mistaken L. Ray wrote that Adam and Eve were not created with immortal souls which does accord with what I'm saying here; that the death spoken of by God in Gen 2 is physical corruption resulting in death, and not an ethereal "death". He says that Adam sinned because he was created mortal.  It was just a matter of time until he sinned, then the sand falls through the hourglass thus God's time frame though hidden. 

The significance of that word "day" in Gen. 2 points to what L. Ray writes below, which is at odds with anything I've read or heard taught in a church. That one word "day" undoes the second beast of Revelation, religion, and places our attentions back to God.  The second beast of Rev. 13:11  causes all to worship the first beast (ourselves), by claiming that we are created immortal, we have free will and FEW people question that.



[Ray Replies]

Dear Barb:

As with ALL major doctrines, the Christian Church has not a clue as to this subject of "original sin."

The doctrine taught is that Adam and Eve were PERFECT (after all, could God create something that was NOT perfect? Were they not created in God's OWN IMAGE)?

Well, they were "perfect" in the same way that Satan (a liar and a murderer from the very beginning) was perfect -- PERFECT FOR THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED THEM.

Adam and Eve ALREADY had lust and disobedience in their hearts BEFORE the serpent approached them. Eve LUSTED BEFORE she ever actually ate of the fruit. Small technicality for our Christian friends.

Now then let's read Rom. 5:12 together:

"Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Now then, WHERE does that verse say that Adam's "sin was passed on to all in the world?"  Was "sin" passed on? NO! "DEATH" was passed on.

Are we condemned because of "ADAM'S SIN?"   NO! "...for that ALL have sinned."  All have sinned their OWN individual sins, they are not condemned because of Adam's sin, but they did receive "death" from Adam in that "mortality" WAS passed on to the whole human race, because Adam did NOT partake of the "TREE OF LIFE," but rather sinned which brought the penalty God promised of "death."

A better translation helps our understanding:

"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind on which all sinned..." (Concordant Literal New Testament).

Rom. 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..."

They were made sinners by VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT THEY RECEIVED ADAM'S MORTALITY [DEATH] NOT HIS SIN. We sin because we are mortal [dying]. We have NO SPIRITUAL STRENGTH to combat our carnal, sinning, DYING, FLESH. Hence all sin because THEY ARE MORTAL. Adam sinned because HE WAS MORTAL. "It is appointed unto ALL men once to die"

But there are TWO DEATHS -- spiritual and physical. Jesus Christ said: "Let the DEAD bury the DEAD."  Two kinds of "dead" in ONE VERSE. The SPIRITUALLY DEAD, who bury the PHYSICALLY DEAD!

Hope that helps your understanding a little better. One more point: Any human being from any generation in the history of the human race, if put in the garden under the same conditions as Adam, would have ALSO SINNED THE SAME WAY. Adam sinned not because he could have chosen NOT TO SIN, but because he was made too spiritually weak to avoid or conquer sin. God MADE Adam subject to VANITY and CORRUPTION (and "not willingly"). See Romans 8:18-23).

God be with you,

Ray

[Farlsborough]

Yes, but what I mean is - if they were not created immortal (I agree), they presumably expected to die at some point. Well, 930 years is pretty much the best innings any human has ever had! Perhaps slightly exceeded by others in the OT, I can't remember. But if someone told me "you'll die today" and I lived to 930 years, I'd feel pretty pleased with myself, and I certainly wouldn't expect that person to be there at my death bed saying "ha ha, I told you you'd die "today"! Neither would be thinking "darn, if only I hadn't eaten that fruit..." - I mean, 930 years of carnal life is actually too much! I think I would probably have preferred to die on that day (or some time in the near future) than live for nearly a thousand years of toil. If God had said, "on that day, you shall be given a thousand years of hard labour", it would make more sense!

Essentially I think it sounds like a bit of a "get-out", a way to make sense of something we don't really understand... I mean, when theoretically would Adam have died, had he not eaten the fruit? He's not immortal.

Something that just occurred to me is this: imagine you give a child a lightweight, toy bike. It's nice, it works, but it's not very robust. Still, it's a gift, and it pleases them. You say to them, "don't go over the rough ground on your bike, because it will break, and I'm not buying you another!". Of course, you know the child will, out of natural curiosity and rebelliousness, go over the rough ground. But what they don't know is that, before they've even broken the bike (inevitably), you have bought them a bigger, stronger bike that will last and is perfectly capable of going over rough ground.

Their bike breaks, they cry, they scuff their knee. They suffer both physical pain and the loss of their original gift. But when the time is right, you show them the better bike you had for them all along. Their experience on the little bike means that they truly value the strong bike. Despite the fact they think they were rebelling against you in going on the rough ground, they were perfectly fulfilling your plan which, in love, was for them to have and to appreciate the sturdy bike.

Perhaps Adam's death is the breaking of that toy bike? Was he already defiant, or carnal? Yes. Was that inevitably going to lead to "death"? Yes.

Ray's reply is profound. Adam's "death" codified the consequence of his carnality, in the same way that the Israelites could steal before they received the law forbidding theft. They were being carnal alright, but they weren't breaking a law because it hadn't been given to them. Afterwards if they steal, they invite punishment and consequence upon themselves, and it is given to them for them to understand this causal link between sin and death. Is any worse harm caused in the physical realm by murder before or after the law? Of course not - it's traumatic and saddening in both cases. But after the law, the murderer understands his actions lead to death, and that his carnality is responsible for his downfall.

Quite what Adam understood at the time - if you believe in a literal Adam, Eve and talking serpent - I don't know, but the record is kept for US to understand.

[Riddles]

But we can understand it.  The very reason that the word "day" is placed there in many translations, and the very reason that Adam lived 930 or so years and we are told this, is for us to find out this false doctrine of an original immortal soul and our free will which, if understood, has so many implications.  It's not like "Oh well I guess we'll never know, best not think about it". 

Who cares that Adam had a good run?  That's not the matter. L. Ray wrote about Adam's mortal soul (the first other person I know about to mention it), and here I independently supply supporting scripture. 



It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.  Proverbs 25:2

[Extol]

The verse should be translated to die you shall be dying.

[Kat]

Gen 2:17  but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Okay the literal translations have "day" so I will go with that.

Riddles, it's a parable (sort of like a riddle  ), Adam represents mankind and what they did/do is "eat of it" means experiencing this life/day. So I think the word "day" there represents our lifetime, whether it last only 1 day or 1000 years or close to it for those few at the beginning of Adam line of descendants.

Yes I can see how "day" in that verse can apply to the Scripture "with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day" because a person's lifetime/day is in that time period. And everybody partakes of "the tree of the fruit of good and evil" in their lifetime, even if they live but a day. God's gives every person the breath of life in the day/days of their life, however long it is.

Also we know that the whole next age is considered "the day of the Lord."

Obadiah 1:15  "For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[dave]

The verse should be translated to die you shall be dying.

Yes I agree.

[santgem]

I was reading some e mailed questions that L. Ray answered.  I posted it here below.  The person asked what God is talking about in Gen 2:17 with "on the day you eat of it you shall surely die."  Christian churches teach (that I know about) teach that here Adam died spiritually that literal day, but could not perceive it.  But here, "day" means 1,000 years and sure enough Adam died at 930 years. God was talking about physical death.


A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by      Psalm 90:4

With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day      2 Peter 3:8



Hi Ray,

You said that Adam and Eve were carnal minded before they ate the forbidden fruit. Does that mean they were spiritually dead before they ate?

If so, what was God taking about when he said "on the day you eat you will surely die?"

[Ray Replies]

God treated Adam and Eve in the same way that the Law of Moses treated Israel. There were numerous laws given to Israel, and the breaking of some of them involved the penalty of death. Now as long as no one actually committed the act that was illegal, no penalty was enacted.  One could look at another man's pretty wife, just as long as he didn't touch her or commit physical adultery with her.

God treated Eve the same way. As long as she kept her lust of the flesh and lust of the eyes and pride of life TO HERSELF, God did not punish her. But once she committed an actual act of law-breaking (in this case disobey the law that God had enacted regarding eating the forbidden fruit), then the PENALTY CAME IN TO PLAY.

Today, under the New Covenant, we are guilty for merely THINKING a sinful thought. Now it is a sin to just "look upon a woman to lust after her" even if one doesn't ACTUALLY commit adultery with her. It is a thing of the SPIRIT, and not just the letter.

God be with you,

Ray

Hello Riddles,
Greetings!


Adam did not die literally on that day same as the thief with Christ be in the paradise of that day.

There are plenty of Ray's explanations i just got one.




http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,979.0.html ------

It is not kosher to quote half of a verse when it has a larger context.   Jesus did not begin a sentence with: "TODAY you shall be with me in paradise," did He?  No, Jesus said: "Verily I say unto thee TODAY shall you be with Me in paradise."  But even that is King James translating, and King James is not inerrant.  Notice how the great scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham renders this verse:  "Verily I say unto thee this day:  With me shalt thou be in Paradise."  But as a footnote he suggests that "This day with me shalt...." as a possibility. So what's the solution?  God tells us how to solve this Verse and every other verse of Scripture:  "That no prophecy of scripture becomes self-solving" (II Pet. 1:20, Rotherham), "That no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its OWN explanation" (Concordant LNT).
We must go to other Scriptures to explain what is mean by this Scripture.
v
v
I don't care if there are NO commas in Luke 23:43.  Commas do not make or break the Scriptures of God.  This verse does not contradict hundreds and hundreds of other Scriptures as the Church teaches it does.  That day, "today," both Jesus AND the thief, DIED AND THEY WERE DEAD

This is a large subject involving the different resurrections, and the Judgments of God. It will take a sizable paper to cover it properly and I cannot do it now. Hope you understand.

God be with you,
Ray

[Riddles]

Simile: a figure of speech involving the comparison of one thing with another thing of a different kind, used to make a description more emphatic or vivid

Notice that the definition does not say that a simile makes a description more clear.  No one is being asked to consider "day" as equal to 1,000 years in every instance of scripture.  This isn't some slippery slope. You're not being asked to consider how many days or epochs it took God to create the world and everything in it. 

In The Lake of Fire Part IX, L. Ray wrote that the trees in Lebanon (Isa. 14:4-8) which talk to the King of Babylon are actual people.  When you read that, did you e mail him to correct him, showing him scripture about the trees of Gen 2:9 being actual trees and not people, so his interpretation was likely wrong, even though admittedly yes it made sense?  If not, why not? 

Gen. 2:17 (KJV) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 2:17 (ESV) but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

Notice it says in (within) the day, and not on the day. 
   
But am I picking only modern English translations to suit my case?  Let's look at an Orthodox Jewish Bible scripture:

Gen. 2:17 (OJB) But of the Etz HaDa'as Tov v'Rah, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the yom [24 hour day] that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


2 Peter 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord  as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

II Kefa 3:8 Chaverim, let not this one thing escape your notice, that "A thousand years in the eyes of Hashem is like one day"

Psalm 90:4  For a thousand years in your sight are just like yesterday [ one day] when it is past, like a watch in the night.

Tehillim 90:4 (OJB) For an elef shanim in Thy sight are but as yom etmol [yesterday] when it is past, and as an ashmurah [watch, division of time] in the lailah.


Gen. 5:5  Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.    


Adam did die in (within) that day, that 1,000 year period that he lived, just as God pronounced.

The unquestioned belief in our own self will is what causes us not to even question Gen. 2:17, even though when pressed we, learned preachers included, either don't care to look into the meaning of "day" or dismiss its importance totally.  It's all just tedious right?  No. 

Maybe you personally thought much about whether or not Adam died spiritually, or never took a stance on whether or not Adam was created perfect, and can't see what the fuss is about and so you think this doesn't apply to you, or to L. Ray's writings.  It does.  The fact that Adam died physically just as God said he would (but not as just about everyone assumes, apparently) changes everything.  The near ubiquitous false doctrine of man's free will and immortality from birth strips God of his omnipotence and makes Him capricious.  But God did not create Adam intending him to be immortal at all, then somehow His laws failed and the experiment ran amok because of our puny wills. How can God create something that is a failure?  How can man's will override God's (Isa. 10:15)?  When we have complete faith that our flesh is unreliable and complete faith that God IS, we finally have rest, and can truly rejoice.